I Have A Predjudice Against Tube-Pre Hybrids...

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stevieb

Just another guy, really.
... and am throwing this out for comment. I owned an ART Attack Module 28 (12ax7 pre, SS power amp, lots of on-board effects and light/portable fiberglass-reinforced plastic case, 2 8" speakers, combo.) I did like the amp, but when I cleaned the cheap pots, it developed a squeel that was hard to avoid. As my ear developed, I found the tube pre hybrid to not sound like it was really doing too much to improve the tone- and I bought a DigiTech RP-7 Valve, so I figured I could do the same thing the ART AT-28 could with any SS amp and the RP-7. In one of my R-GAS (Reverse Gear Aquisistion Syndrome) purges, the ART was sold. I have played the occasional tube-pre hybrid before and since, but not owned any others.

I do occasionally miss it- not so much for it's tone, as for it's power (50 watts per channel X 2-stereo, altho that was into 4 ohms and was probably a bit optimistic) and it's portability- on-board chorus, reverb, clean and od channels, etc., plus it's neat, light cab and stereo line out meant I could go from car/van to stage in one easy trip.

Since then, I have found tubes. My GOD, have I found tubes, as in "found God." Peavel Classic 30 then DB-210, Fender Twin then Deluxe then Pro, and I just LOVE the tone I am getting. Any time I give even half a rat's ass about my tone, I lug one heavy tube amp or another along.

And I am thinking of snagging a Fender Super Champ XD. Auditioned it, liked it lots, etc. Thing is, I recently learned that it is not the kind of "all tube" amp I thought it was- pre amp is SS, whereas I thought the 12AX7 was pre amp, but it does other things. And a while back, I auditioned Vox's whole line of smaller hybrids- noticed two things about the lot: 1. Pretty good tone, at least at first blush, and 2. Too many variables- I want to have my own "signature" sound, not reproduce every famous guitar player's tone in the course of one set, so there is about, I dunno, 20 times the effects/levels I need there.

Just brushing against my hypothysis that 90% of all guitarist can not really hear most of the differences we laud so much in one amp over another, I do wonder, how much of my predjudices are in my head, and how many are in my ear, I wonder?

In a related item, I tried, once, to divorce my predjudices from my ear by recording the same riff, played on the same guitar, recorded thru the same mic and HD recorder, but thru different amps. The results yielded no suprises- I liked the same amps, recorded, that I did, live. Of course, there was no "blind" testing- I knew exactly what amp was where in the order played, so my prejudices stayed intact. A double blind test- where one guitarist plays thru several amps, but does not know which is which by name, and another guitarist listens to the recording and picks out his/her favs- only the recorder knowing the whole score- would be much more scientific and helpful, but who's got the time to do that? I mean, I would take the time, but only if I could get a research grant...
 
If somebody made a hybrid that uses an output transformer off the preamp tubes to a SS power transistor, with a rectifier tube feeding the SS power transistor, that could be interesting. The required transformer would be much smaller, cheaper, and lighter than a full-on output transformer, and the resulting amp would be much more efficient.

I don't think the SS stage is a problem per se, nobody seems to mind a Tube Screamer in front of a tube amp, nor a SS mic preamp afterwards. I just don't think the hybrid amp has successfully modeled the full tube amp characteristics yet.

I built a hybrid amp, and it sounds much better than a plain ol' SS amp. Someday if I get time, I might try my mini-output transformer theory.
 
I have a predjeduce against hybrids with a single 12AX7 in the pre for one reason - they typically cost about twice what the same manufacturer's comparable all-SS amp would, and with a single tube in the pre then you pretty much know that there has to be some significant solid state assist going on anyway to get the sort of gain most of these things put out, so that it's really not even a true "tube" distortion.

If you compare the price of a Marshall MG head and a Marshall AVT head, and consider both have solid state poweramps (which Marshall's tube power amp is really what gives them their signature sound), it becomes VERY hard to justify the price difference. Either save your cash and grab the (perfectly serviceable) MG, or cough up a little more for a DSL.
 
i know what you guys mean about preamp-hybrids. i don't really have a prejudice (and i think they're better sounding than all-SS) and I almost bought a Guitar Research 1x12 combo, when it was on clearance a while ago, but I'm glad I didn't. I just don't like them as much as what I hear from tube amps (never owned an all-tube, but played through them).

Last week I borrowed a friend's Hot Rod Deluxe and played through it. Nice. but I like my SCXD just as much - the only difference I heard was power and speaker size diff.

I think that while SCXD is not a true all-tube, it's way up there with production all-tubes (when you factor in speaker size/power/price/features/versatility).
 
I think that while SCXD is not a true all-tube, it's way up there with production all-tubes (when you factor in speaker size/power/price/features/versatility).

Not that you're at ALL biased. ;)

Kidding aside, I agree that the tube power section is really what makes the difference in the "feel" of the response. The Fender you're raving about has one - most hybrids don't.
 
I generally like the Vox hybrids - the 12AX7 isn't used for preamp or power amp, but rather as an analog step in the power amp model process. I find that the amps sound better when I use a lower powered 12AT7 - almost like the 12AX7 is overpowering some downstream analog circuitry.
 
preamp tubes.... sheesh

Tone is in the power. You need the power tubes and a big heavy output transformer to get the tone. Preamp tubes are whimpy and don't deliver the punch. I prefer the CMOSS circuit my old Sunn had if I can't have power tubes.
 
Well, I like using tube preamps for distortion/OD.
And got a bass amp with a tube pre, as well as a SS...
The tube pre definetly sounds different than the SS, better, not sure about that.. a bit more clonky mids and a hint of growl, less bass, zero crispy highs.
 
Tone is in the power. You need the power tubes and a big heavy output transformer to get the tone. Preamp tubes are whimpy and don't deliver the punch. I prefer the CMOSS circuit my old Sunn had if I can't have power tubes.

That's just in implementations you've already seen. How do you know it's the power tubes and not the output transformer? Kinda hard to find an all-tube amp without both, isn't it?
 
I just thinking that it really boils down to the tone you're looking for. I've been using a Trademark 10 with a small dbx tube preamp between the guitar and the amp. I've been totally happy with my tone with that. Actually more than what I've been able to do with tube amps - so sue me.

I've played with several other "modeling" amps with a tube pre (e.g. Vox) - and I think each just has their own sound. If recording or going live - then I would just go with whatever sounds best to you... and it sounds like you know what you want.

The thing the modelers win hands-down is their ability to produce high-gain sounds at bedroom levels. Plus, in live settings where you are going through a PA, you can maintain low levels without overpowering everything.

But that just my opinion and you know what that's worth.
 
That's just in implementations you've already seen. How do you know it's the power tubes and not the output transformer? Kinda hard to find an all-tube amp without both, isn't it?
I had an amp that had both, then not the transformer, then quickly not the output tubes either (at least this is how I conceptualize it, forensically speaking). Sort of like those elements that get created in the lab for fractions of a second :D

oh, and it didn't have a very pleasing tone
 
I had an amp that had both, then not the transformer, then quickly not the output tubes either (at least this is how I conceptualize it, forensically speaking). Sort of like those elements that get created in the lab for fractions of a second :D

oh, and it didn't have a very pleasing tone

Ok, that was funny. :D
 
I have one of the Vox AD amps...and I think it sounds much better than a SS amp. Seems pretty reactive to me, but I've never owned an all tube amp, so I have nothing to compare it to.
 
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