How often to clean tape path?

[nddhc]

Hi, I have another question for you guys. I bought some tape for my machine, some RMGI LPR35 for my Fostex R8 to be exact. I am wondering how often I need to clean the tape path?

During recording, after about every 20 minutes, the highs seem to disappear and I start hearing drop outs. When I remove the tape and check all the paths, there is a lot of gunk built up on the heads and rollers. I clean everything with qtips and denatured alchohol, let it dry, and when I run the tape again everything is fine.

To me it seems like this much cleaning is going to do more harm than good, and im wondering if perhaps I received a defective batch of tape. What are your thoughts?

 

[Ladnar]

Man o' man! If this question isn't tailored for Tim Beck, then I don't know what is!

Wait for his reply!

Randal

 

[avieth]

I use an R8 as well, but I'm using Ampex 457, the kind of tape that sheds and sheds and sheds. I have to clean the tape path at least once every 20 minutes, but you shouldn't have to do it that often using RMG LPR35. Perhaps you did get a bad batch of tape.

 

[sweetbeats]

nddhc,

1. Where did you buy the tape from?

2. When did you buy it?

3. What condition is your tape path in? (i.e. do your heads have any flattened/scored/grooved worn areas? Guides? lifters?)

4. Confim with absolute certainty that your tape path is mechanically aligned according to the manual.

5. Have you had trouble with any other tape?

Assuming that the answers to the questions are:

1. An authorized dealer.

2. Recently.

3. Normal wear, no scored grooved areas, just smooth even wear patterns.

4. Yup...its all lined up!

5. Nope.

Then, call the dealer you bought it from. They may have some questions for you, but if ultimately you don't get the service you need from them, just call Phil Paske at RMGI. He will have additional questions. He'll need the batch number off the tape box for instance, but he's just trying to be a good steward to make sure that its not mechanically related. The batch number will help him determine if it was a bad batch...I'll get you the number in another post.

Bottom line, you shouldn't have buildup like that. After running a full reel you might have a slight amount of oxide especially on the guides, but it would be dry powder, not gummy buildup on the heads...barely discoverable with a swab. I wouldn't hesistate to clean the path after running a reel of tape tho'. Might be overkill but it can't hurt y'know? Forum member cjacek turned me on to using high-quality cotton makeup removal pads rather than swabs. They hold more cleaning agent and make it easier to clean the guides well.

I had the same thing happen to me with a reel of SM911. RMGI took care of me very well when it was determined that it was from an early batch that was bad. About 5% of the early production runs when the factory moved to the Netherlands and started up production again had issues, but RMGI has gotten much more specific in the batch numbering system than the Emtec/BASF days.

Anyway, hope that helps...I'll go find that number.

 

[sweetbeats]

Phil Paske at RMGI:

(661) 287-9877

 

[elly-d]

i have found RGMI 911 to shed just as much as quantegy 456 in my experience. i had to clean every hour to avoid highs disappearing, my problem was the tape was rubbing on out of line guides which was producing more dust than normal, now its fine. can go a whole day with no noticable problems.

 

[nddhc]

I bought the tape from Media Distributors in Studio city, CA last week. Ive attached some pictures of the heads and tape path. I appologize for the quality, I could not get any closeup shots that would not come out blurry. This is as close as I could get.

You can see some oxide dust on the surface and also some stuck to the erase heads and other parts. You guys will know more about this than me. Since it has been sitting unused for such a long time, a proper service and alignment is most likely a must and I will be getting that done shortly. However, if its worth anything, for the past few years it has been sitting in its original plastic wrapping and Styrofoam in the original box.

I am not the original owner, but I did pick it up for a great deal and wouldnt mind putting a bit of money into getting it running as it should. Please let me know if anything looks out of the ordinary, I sent all this info to Phil at RMGI as well and am awaiting response.

Also, is there a problem with using denatured alcohol as a cleaning solution? Most sites recommend Isopropyl alcohol, though I have seen denatured alcohol listed once or twice. Plus it is much easier to come across.

Thanks for all your help so far!

 

[sweetbeats]

I know that Phil Paske has expressed to me that he much prefers to talk by phone.

Hard to tell the tape path condition from the pics. do you have a manual for the R8?

 

[nddhc]

Yeah I have both the user and service manuals... is there anything I should be looking at?

 

[ausrock]

Most of the residue appears to be at the "top" of the tape path on the roller at the RH side of the pic, also a similar deposit on the capstan. One of the guys familiar with this type of deck may be able to interpret that and make some useful suggestions.

 

[cjacek]

As Cory already suggested, I'd talk to Phil about this for a possible exchange of tape, to a more recent batch.

----

 

[cjacek]

During recording, after about every 20 minutes, the highs seem to disappear and I start hearing drop outs. When I remove the tape and check all the paths, there is a lot of gunk built up on the heads and rollers. I clean everything with qtips and denatured alchohol, let it dry, and when I run the tape again everything is fine.

That is certainly not normal. As Cory already suggested, in his excellent post, I'd talk to Phil about this for a possible exchange of tape, to a more recent batch.

Also, don't use q-tips but get yourself one of them 100% cotton, make up removers you see in just about any store. Those work better and quicker. That, and of course, the 90% [or higher] isopropyl alcohol.

-----

 

[Beck]

That’s way too much oxide shedding for any tape, especially new stock. I don’t see anything obvious that should cause a tape to lose oxide to that degree… except for one thing. What are those funky red washers on the guides? The only R8’s I’ve seen have all metal guides in those positions. The ones in your pics look like someone put faucet washers on them. Unless Fostex changed that part in later models. But if that's soft rubber it's a really bad idea.

One more thing to check is the inside of the plastic reels. If the tape is rubbing on the reel and there is a sharp protrusion from a poor injection molding process it could be tearing up the tape.

It’s a good idea to have a reel or two of different 1800ft tape around like Scotch Highlander, Dynarange, Maxell 35-90, Ampex 641 or even Radio Shack. It doesn’t really matter what it is as long as you can tell RMGI that it’s not your machine because you have other brands of tape that don’t shed.

 

[sweetbeats]

Makeup removers ROCK! cjacek is right...they do a better job IMO. And also, like he is saying, get the 90% or higher isopropyl alcohol...look to see that it says "anhydrous" on it...means no water...water + headstack =

I have also read a couple places about denatured alcohol, but I believe it does not leave the surface as clean. It in and of itself leaves a film.

nddhc, there should be a section in your service manual regarding machanical tape path alignment/adjustment (not electrical alignment). Find that section and look it over. If you are comfortable with it, getcher tools and go to work checking your tape path. If it seems intimidating, take it to somebody you trust and personally deliver and pickup...don't subject R8 to the merciless shipping minions!!!

Really though, mechanically aligning your tape path is one of the easier tasks to do on an atr, especially if you have that service manual, so I'd encourage you to get the experience yourself. It is very rewarding and saves dineros!

Is there any way you can get a closer shot of those heads? It looks like there is some grooving but I can't tell. If the heads are smooth and the profile is rounded (not flat from wear), and you have gummyish oxide building up on the heads dropping your repro levels (and record levels too) that sounds awfully familiar to me...that is exactly what I went through...acually had record levels drop to infinity on a couple tracks while I was trying to do an electronic alignment.

Listen, just call Phil. He'd welcome the call if he's in, and he will call you back if you have to leave a voicemail. I just know that he's gonna give you the tape path drill, which is perfectly reasonable, so be prepared for that. If it is part of one of those early affected batches RMGI will take care of it.

 

[sweetbeats]

nddhc,

Beck is right on. I had a test tape on Quantegy stock that I was running and it left the heads totally clean, while the RMGI was not. Big difference. It helped to present my issue that other tape was running clean.

 

[TinNedd]

I think depends on what you use your machine for.

I only use my machines for mastering and nothing else. I make sure tape path is clean before each side I record or play, and after Iv finnished. Long as tape lasts for transfer to computer Im happy. Not all tape is good, but if its in the machine I want use it up.

I have yet to have any real sticky shead problems, except the end of the leader tape got stuck on the end of one old used tape one time. Iv got a few different brands of NOS tape stored away, I assume that sooner or later when I get one out for use, one will have sticky shead and I hope only one too.

I think playing R2R tapes for listening is simply a special treat when in your in the mood or something, cause you have to prepare the machine for playback every time. Its lot easier and simpler just to use the CD player for most situations.

 

[_brian_]

I've got those funky red washers as well, i'm getting new tape from RMG in a couple of weeks & I'll tell you how I get on

That’s way too much oxide shedding for any tape, especially new stock. I don’t see anything obvious that should cause a tape to lose oxide to that degree… except for one thing. What are those funky red washers on the guides? The only R8’s I’ve seen have all metal guides in those positions. The ones in your pics look like someone put faucet washers on them. Unless Fostex changed that part in later models. But if that's soft rubber it's a really bad idea.

One more thing to check is the inside of the plastic reels. If the tape is rubbing on the reel and there is a sharp protrusion from a poor injection molding process it could be tearing up the tape.

It’s a good idea to have a reel or two of different 1800ft tape around like Scotch Highlander, Dynarange, Maxell 35-90, Ampex 641 or even Radio Shack. It doesn’t really matter what it is as long as you can tell RMGI that it’s not your machine because you have other brands of tape that don’t shed.

 

[ausrock]

Tim,

What do you make of what appears to be an "oxide line" at the top of the tape path, especially on the two rollers at either side of the pic and the capstan? Is it possible that there's either something abrading the top edge of the tape or an alignment issue affecting it in that area.

ChrisO

 

[nddhc]

Beck -
The plastic reels are smooth on the inside, and the tape is wound and playing perfectly center on the reels - not rubbing against the walls at all on either reel.

The guy left me with a few boxes of open, used Ampex 457 and suffered badly from Sticky Shed. From the box design it looks like it is from the late 80s. Im not sure what other tape to try besides RMGI that I can still purchase new?


sweetbeats -
I read most of the service manual and it was all like a foreign language to me. The section that went over alignment was way out of my league and it looked like the parts needed could set me back a few hundred dollars if not more! Im hoping ill be able to find a local place in either the Orange County or Los angeles, CA area that can do it for me at a reasonable price.

Also, I got a response that Phil is in the Netherlands and will be getting back to me later this week.


Ill try to borrow a camera and get better pics of the heads. Also, for future reference, I hope people dont consider this post a complaint against RMGI. I appreciate what theyre doing and this problem can easily turn out to be my fault as well.

 

[sweetbeats]

nddhc,

very well stated post...

regarding the service manual, I understand. Please be certain not to confuse the mechanical tape path alignment with the electronic. You are right that, especially if you don't have the right tools and/or experience, the electronic alignment (which requires tone generator, test tape, etc...spendy tools) can be intimidating. But the mechanical alignment (gettin' all the rollers and stuff lined up so that the tape goes over the center of the heads in a way that doesn't pinch/curl the tape, OR allow the tape to wander) is typically more intuitive and typically uses common tools. If this is the part that was "in a different language", please know I am not meaning to judge you, just trying to help and encourage. The service manuals were indeed written for technicians, and some manufacturer's are more techie than others.

Guys, anybody know of a service center in nddhc's area that could help?

Tim,

What do you make of what appears to be an "oxide line" at the top of the tape path, especially on the two rollers at either side of the pic and the capstan? Is it possible that there's either something abrading the top edge of the tape or an alignment issue affecting it in that area.

just a comment from my experience with the RMGI tape...I know a lot of 1/2" decks were setup for the 12.5mm tape popularized by, um, Ampex/Quantegy right? Whereas the RMGI tape is slit at the more true 12.7mm standard. Is there any potential issue like this for the 1/4" tape? Again this would be a path adjustment issue. My 58 tape path was adjusted for the 12.5mm tape, and when I got my SM911 I had a line left on my pinch roller especially. It was really prominent with the shedding reel I initially got, and was improved when I adjusted the tape path. Then I noticed that there was a light whitish line with the replacment good reel I got from RMGI. It only lasted one pass though and was pretty minor, and I think it was, like, a by-product of the slitting process or something. I didn't contact Phil Paske about it because it was no big deal and the tape looks fine. I just know that the marking was prominent and oxide related when the tape path was too narrow, and the tape was from a bad batch.

Gotta get a closeup of the heads, gotta get the tape path setup if it is not, and gotta find out if the tape is from a bad batch.

All these issues are solvable, nddhc, and we'll help get you there!