Why analogue and not digital?

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I look at iPod as just one format to be concerned with.
It's more than just a "format". It's also a distribution device. Also, it's a source (or better say, - The Source at the user end).
I still produce the best product I possibly can with a view to how it will sound on the best sound systems.
And, thus, you are on your own. The Industry has no interest in you, nor in what you produce.
Back in the day small radios and Walkman style cassette players vastly outnumbered audiophile systems, but we still mixed for the best, not the worst.
Those "walkman(s)" were just players. They were not a "format". They were not distribution devices and they were not The Source at the user end.

Trends change almost overnight in our society.
Oh yeah. :rolleyes:
You see, iPodized Population is not just a bunch of people with iPods in their pockets (well, it is that too), but it's a bit more than just that. It is also a lifestyle combined with projected perception of reality, which feeds back the lifestyle.
If/when the masses rediscover ...
Masses will "discover" what will be projected (instantly and through out, that is).

Enjoy the moment, while it lasts.

:)

actually, I mean - :(:(:(:(:(

/respects

p.s.
"Everybody knows The War Is Over..." (Leonard Cohen)
 
It's more than just a "format". It's also a distribution device. Also, it's a source (or better say, - The Source at the user end).

And, thus, you are on your own. The Industry has no interest in you, nor in what you produce.

Hmmm... I guess I've been at this long enough (pushing 30 years) to have seen end-user formats come and go... trends swing from one extreme to another like the proverbial pendulum.

FM Radio is a format
Vinyl is a format
Cassette is a format
CD is a format
MP3 is a format

And within the above formats there is a variety of playback devices ranging from the barely passable matchbook size players with ear buds to huge entertainment systems for the best listening experience.

It’s human nature to tire of whatever is in vogue, so what seems to be all the rage today will be passé tomorrow. We shouldn’t assume that music will continue to decline. Some future generation will inevitably come along and demand something better. Even if the current one isn’t deep enough to pull it off, perhaps their children will.

So I don’t look at music or life for that matter based on the current environment. I’m looking 5, 10 or 20 years down the road. ;)
 
A couple of points.

D/A converters never connect the dots. They output a sinc function of the correct amplitude at the correct instant. That's very, very hard to do, and probably 90% of the digital v. analog debate is caused by weak D/A.

Thought experiments are a very bad place to work out digital signal theory.
 
Nyquist/Shannon is often held up as the defining theory that proves that digitally sampled audio is flawless (OK so I over stated it, grant me that). All signals sampled below the Nyquist freq can be reproduced. People often do not understand what the theory actually states and also tend to forget the conditions required by the theory.

I try not to forget. In fact, although it's not a strict condition of Nyquist, when you have data stored as integers (as in a fixed-point 24 bit system), you also have limit dynamic range as well as bandwidth, to eliminate QD as well as aliasing.

Here is a NASA paper which explores one of the distortions that occur in sampled signals well below the nyquist cutoff. Take a moment to read:

I read the entire paper. Two excerpts stand out especially:

p.1 said:
]The effect occurs whenever the sample rate and the signal frequency are related by ratios of mutually prime integers. For cost and technical reasons, the waveform display devices omit the required reconstruction steps.

The question of course is to what extent do modern D/A converters omit or address the required steps? I don't know, but it's a good question for Lavry, Putzeys, etc.


p.22 said:
Finally, in this report, no detailed analysis has been done to see if the modulation effects around a Region II node result in extra peaks in the power spectrum indicating signal power is aliased into undesirable frequencies. No claim is made that the Region II distortions result in real signal power being lost from the sampled signal.

That (lack of) conclusion is going to make it very hard to evaluate a specific converter. Because if they had done so, and found a sideband distortion, then it would be straightforward to test a converter and see if it generated that distortion or not, and we could conclude whether its D/A reconstruction had addressed it or not.

It's tougher to test as a digitally-generated test signal will have the resulting peak modulation. In fact that's how they are telling people to test it using Excel or a computer program. So when I generate a 5/63 sample rate signal in Wavelab (4992.45Hz), I can see the peak modulation. On on FFT, it just shows that frequency (which makes me wonder why the authors didn't try that, I can't believe NASA didn't have an FFT analyzer in 2000).

A D/A/D roundtrip yields the same resulting frequency peak on an FFT, with no sideband distortion (other than some 60Hz hum and some noise), with the same peak modulation visible in the waveform. The maximum amount of peak modulation I measured on the original digital signal was 4.8%, or about -0.4dB. The incoming wave was roughly the same, 6% peak modulation, or -0.5dB.

This actually occurs with just about any frequency. I Googled around a bit more, but couldn't find much other discussion; perhaps the terminology of that paper is a little different from what developers use, which would frustrate a search.


As an aside, I don't think I ever suggested it was acceptable to push errors down to -60dBFS. Clearly it is not, and the sample files I posted will show that. We need to go at least -110dB, and ideally more. The QD errors in the digitally generated 24 bit waves were -150dBFS; in reality those can't exist because they will be dithered by A/D converter noise (they could exist at the output of a synthesizer though). Any 16 bit system needs to self-limit its dynamic range by adding dither at a sufficient level to eliminate its otherwise audible QD errors.
 
I read the paper, too.

It said, "Good D/A converters are hard to make."
 
I've read the entire thread now and I don't think there was much mention of the additional harmonic content added by tape.

I'm not technically savy enough to explain it, but I've measured it in experiments in my studio showing what a 1khz sine wave looks like after hitting the tape at different recoridng levels.

In my listening experience, I think the additional content flatters the music. I guess it's not what digital may miss, but what it fails to add.

The other part is the compression. To my ears, tape compression sounds a million times better than any plug-in comp. Perhaps there some outboard comps that sound as good or better. Maybe so, but my Tascam reel-to-reel was cheaper than an RNC, let alone the high-end stuff.
 
I've read the entire thread now and I don't think there was much mention of the additional harmonic content added by tape.

I'm not technically savy enough to explain it, but I've measured it in experiments in my studio showing what a 1khz sine wave looks like after hitting the tape at different recoridng levels.

In my listening experience, I think the additional content flatters the music. I guess it's not what digital may miss, but what it fails to add.

Yeah, that's an excellent point.
 
Holy crap. All I can say is I really hope some newbie (that's just thinking about getting into home recording) doesn't discover this thread first. He'll go running and screaming!
 
Holy crap. All I can say is I really hope some newbie (that's just thinking about getting into home recording) doesn't discover this thread first. He'll go running and screaming!

And the mic forum would be different how? :D

He should go do what most of us did anyway. Buy a cheap cassette 4-track and spend many years with it trying to make chicken salad out of chicken poop without the benefit of the interweb...
 
If I read him correctly, Daniel's is a more fundamental question about sampling at any rate, vis a vis say analog tape's continuous or linear way of doing it.

Daniel's diagram seems to indicate a conception that sampling results in distortions or "leaving bits out" at all audible frequencies. Hence the diagram with a broken line (- - - --- ---- etc) extending from 20hz up to 20khz, compared to the conception of analog tape as represented by a straight unbroken line from 20hz to 20khz.(___________)

I think we're getting close. For Daniel's question I want to try a different tack. Instead of going SACD super hifi, lets go the other way to lo fi. Stick with me.

Basic principle: We only need to sample the amount of detail we want to reproduce. That detail is summed up as "higher frequencies".
If we only needed to record frequencies up to 2khz, we would basically only need a sample rate of 4.4khz. If only a 20hz bass tone, a 44hz sample rate. Yes, you read it right, 44hz sample rate. Add a bit more if you want to but that's basically it.

Reducing the sample rate reduces your high frequency upper limit. That's basically it.

Daniel it's no surprise the snapshot you posted was of a high frequency, because nobody that I know seriously suggests mid to low frequencies cannot be reproduced accurately at 44.1khz. The 44.1 samples per second are there for the capture of high frequencies. The mids and lows look after themselves. Put another way, they are grossly oversampled. Extravagantly. But that's OK.

Do a simple test. Record some live source at 44.1. Then at 22. Then at 11. Play them back. What is the obvious change? The 22 shaves off the highs above 10khz. The 11 shaves off above about 5khz.

There is basically no "loss of definition" except in the high frequencies right near the edge of the design limit, which is exactly what we would expect.

I'm serious. Try it yourself. Dont just take my word for it.
The advantage of such a test is it brings the actual sampling rate limitations into the audible band for everyone to hear (so long as their hearing isnt too shot). Similarly the problem with debates about whether we need to sample at 44.1 or 88 or 96 or 192 is that most if not all of the real changes are at very high frequencies often inaudible.

Please dont misunderstand. This is for Daniel's benefit, and directly addressing the point he made. Daniel has been honest and candid enough to state how he sees digital sampling and that should be respected. I think he deserves an answer. I'm trying to give him one in clear and simple terms.

If you can do better than this, go ahead.


Cheers Tim.
 
In my listening experience, I think the additional content flatters the music. I guess it's not what digital may miss, but what it fails to add.

I think this is getting closer to at least part of the "truth" although I tend to think digital "omits" rather than "misses".

:cool:
 
If I read him correctly, Daniel's is a more fundamental question about sampling at any rate, vis a vis say analog tape's continuous or linear way of doing it.....................................

..........................................Please dont misunderstand. This is for Daniel's benefit, and directly addressing the point he made. Daniel has been honest and candid enough to state how he sees digital sampling and that should be respected. I think he deserves an answer. I'm trying to give him one in clear and simple terms.

If you can do better than this, go ahead.


Cheers Tim.

Thank God, an intelligent answer, not over endowed with techno-speak, an answer that almost anyone could comprehend.

Wonderful!!!

:cool:
 
LOL, what was the original question?

So even if the guy puts together a nice analogue setup, he'll have to get a good two channel digital interface so he can share his music, right?
 
I've read the entire thread now and I don't think there was much mention of the additional harmonic content added by tape.

I'm not technically savy enough to explain it, but I've measured it in experiments in my studio showing what a 1khz sine wave looks like after hitting the tape at different recoridng levels.

In my listening experience, I think the additional content flatters the music. I guess it's not what digital may miss, but what it fails to add.

The other part is the compression. To my ears, tape compression sounds a million times better than any plug-in comp. Perhaps there some outboard comps that sound as good or better. Maybe so, but my Tascam reel-to-reel was cheaper than an RNC, let alone the high-end stuff.

Yes, tape does flatter the music… a secret that so many folks are denying themselves in the art of creating beautiful music. I treat tape as any other instrument in my studio. The phrase “Better than live” was used back in the day to describe the sonically pleasing attributes imparted by analog tape.

However, it must also be understood that the greatest myth about digital is the idea that it doesn’t color or alter the sound. “What goes in is what comes out” is and always was a marketing mantra. So, not only does digital leave something out, it also adds unpleasant artifacts that don’t exist in the live sound. And since the beginning people have attempted to described digital sound with terms such as sterile, cold, harsh, brittle, etc.

:)
 
Yes! You can play and enjoy the glory of your iPod's content through any system on the planet.
Choices are unlimited, just apply your "Free Will". :rolleyes: :D
*************
human nature
Yep, humans always are seeking "something better".
****************

I’m looking 5, 10 or 20 years down the road. ;)
I prefer NOT to look there.
I am trying to do what I can to expose the base (the plot) of the "current environment", with very little (next to non) hope that what I prefer NOT to look at can be avoided, due to the fact, that True Free Will is rather unnatural to humans. :(
 
I find it interesting...

....That the NASA paper indicates that digital sampling results in envelope modulation and that we have dropped that info and gone back to the same old "Analog must be adding distortion" comment.

You should note that they were talking about sampling where the sample rate was 10 times (not 2 !) the rate of the data they were interested in.... This is real world science where the data is important.

It is easy to see if the record/playback scheme is accurate and complete and what it puts in or takes out. It should be obvious that an ideal system will have the playback equal in all respects to the input. I don't think that ideal systems exist (duh) but that is OK as that we want to find the degree.

So analog guys on the left and digital on the right. Pick a record that is all analog from the mic to the cutting of the master platter. Play it back on your favorite turntable and record it to a tape deck and to (so say) pro tools. Straight in, nothing in the way but your RIAA preamp.

Now keeping your original recording intact play it back onto another track be it digital or a second tape track. On the analog side we have bounced one track to another. On the digital side we have added another dac/adc step.

We can label that generation 2. Let's do that a few more times. Perhaps we should take that out to the 5 or 6th generation.

Now, make up a wave file that has the 1st generation and the 5th generation on it and post it for all to hear.

On the analog side we would expect to hear tape hiss on top of hiss on top of hiss and all of those (supposed) distortions that tape adds.

On the digital side (if digital were perfect) we would hear no differences because digital does not miss any data below nyquist. Doesn't add or take anything out. That might be too hard so we should allow for a few glitches.


Oh by the way does anyone remember that many if not all floating point units do their 64 bit floats in an 80 bit FP unit.
 
....That the NASA paper indicates that digital sampling results in envelope modulation and that we have dropped that info and gone back to the same old "Analog must be adding distortion" comment.

I'm not on that, I'm still on NASA. And they seem to be mainly concerned because the sample waveform is their final data form. That's not true for audio, you have to listen in analog ;)

I am thinking about an experiment to see if the peak modulation exists in the reconstructed analog wave or not. There was a comment in the paper that it wouldn't be possible to create an algorithm to offset the modulation because the phase of the incoming signal wouldn't be known, or something to that effect. We should be able to use that fact to test a D/A/D cycle for cumulative modulation errors.

In other words, if the digitally generated wave has peak modulation errors (it does), and if such errors survive reconstruction, then when patched back into the A/D, the new peak modulation error should accumulate at a random phase. That means that several iterations of the experiment should result in different levels of peak modulation error.

I'll try that later tonight.

Now, make up a wave file that has the 1st generation and the 5th generation on it and post it for all to hear.

I'm all for that, but I'd rather someone start with a recording on tape rather than LP. I know people like the sound of LP, but I don't think it has the fidelity of the master tape. Either way, it's a generation that is not specific to either medium, so I don't see its contribution.

So we need somebody with a good subject recording on high-quality tape, and also with reasonable quality conversion. I can't do the former, so if somebody can do the first step to 24/96, then everybody can have a crack at their own converters/tape decks.

I will note that there can be no such thing as a transparent A/D/A, at least to the extent that there is no such thing as a transparent mic preamp. That's because every converter has its own analog front and back end, and the quality of those circuits vary greatly. I think somebody really expensive just came out with a converter with a highly colored transformer input, and everybody is raving or griping about the quality of the conversion :confused:

That's true of a tape deck too, so it should be a fair test. I think such a test would be illustrative.
 
Oh by the way does anyone remember that many if not all floating point units do their 64 bit floats in an 80 bit FP unit.

Doesn't that have to do with the required precision? 32 bit float yields 24 bit fixed precision, which is what is required for audio output. The internal processes of the mix engine should carry 32 bit float throughout so there is only one truncation and dithering required, at the end.
 
I have completed my test of peak modulation errors. I took seven different recordings of D/A/D of the same waveform (4992.45Hz, as earlier), which showed peak modulation errors as described earlier. The resulting waves all showed the same peak modulation error, 5%, or 0.5dB, when viewing the waveform. I then took the D/A/D recording and repeated the test. The result was the same.

Since the error did not accumulate, nor show any phase cancellation or reinforcement, I conclude that the constituent sine wave which causes the peak modulation distortion when viewing the waveform is removed by the D/A converter, and therefore ultrasonic.

This is then a similar concern as the original comment about the visual appearance of a digital 10kHz wave: only relevant if viewing the waveform is the final output.
 
If I read him correctly, Daniel's is a more fundamental question about sampling at any rate, vis a vis say analog tape's continuous or linear way of doing it.

Daniel's diagram seems to indicate a conception that sampling results in distortions or "leaving bits out" at all audible frequencies. Hence the diagram with a broken line (- - - --- ---- etc) extending from 20hz up to 20khz, compared to the conception of analog tape as represented by a straight unbroken line from 20hz to 20khz.(___________)

I think we're getting close. For Daniel's question I want to try a different tack. Instead of going SACD super hifi, lets go the other way to lo fi. Stick with me.

Basic principle: We only need to sample the amount of detail we want to reproduce. That detail is summed up as "higher frequencies".
If we only needed to record frequencies up to 2khz, we would basically only need a sample rate of 4.4khz. If only a 20hz bass tone, a 44hz sample rate. Yes, you read it right, 44hz sample rate. Add a bit more if you want to but that's basically it.

Reducing the sample rate reduces your high frequency upper limit. That's basically it.

Daniel it's no surprise the snapshot you posted was of a high frequency, because nobody that I know seriously suggests mid to low frequencies cannot be reproduced accurately at 44.1khz. The 44.1 samples per second are there for the capture of high frequencies. The mids and lows look after themselves. Put another way, they are grossly oversampled. Extravagantly. But that's OK.

Do a simple test. Record some live source at 44.1. Then at 22. Then at 11. Play them back. What is the obvious change? The 22 shaves off the highs above 10khz. The 11 shaves off above about 5khz.

There is basically no "loss of definition" except in the high frequencies right near the edge of the design limit, which is exactly what we would expect.

I'm serious. Try it yourself. Dont just take my word for it.
The advantage of such a test is it brings the actual sampling rate limitations into the audible band for everyone to hear (so long as their hearing isnt too shot). Similarly the problem with debates about whether we need to sample at 44.1 or 88 or 96 or 192 is that most if not all of the real changes are at very high frequencies often inaudible.

Please dont misunderstand. This is for Daniel's benefit, and directly addressing the point he made. Daniel has been honest and candid enough to state how he sees digital sampling and that should be respected. I think he deserves an answer. I'm trying to give him one in clear and simple terms.

If you can do better than this, go ahead.


Cheers Tim.

Tim, I appreciate you taking the time and I do understand what you're saying and while you did explain, in the context of the above, mine is of a different argument.

I do not believe that digital sampling is directly related to the physical properties of the original sound, as much as that of analog. It can't be because when you 'sample', you effectively throw away information, wherever it is contained. Is this in dispute?

ausrock pointed out earlier that digital "omits" rather than "misses". I'm not sure if it omits or misses but it's one or the other or both. In whichever case, digital is not 'analogous' [pardon the pun] to the original source or waveform. It can't be because 'sampling' effectively makes this impossible.

Natural life, on this earth, processes in analogue, tape machines record and playback analogue. We're creatures, which process in pure analogue and not ones which deal well with A/D D/A conversion. I can hear it and I can feel it. Am I missing something? Science aside, isn't this just common sense?

A question thus begs to be asked: Why do many people accept the sound of digital or is 'accept' not the right term?

-------
 
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