Gibson/Epiphone lies

[muttley600]

You're funny.


First, I never mentioned Japan or Indonesia (especially Japan).


If you want to harbor some illusions that the Chinese who make Telecasters and the Americans who make telecasters live similar lives, guess again.


You're kidding, right?



I'll state the simple well-known fact again: American companies built products overseas in order to save money. Everyone knows this.


And the people in those countries tend to be dirt poor. And, yes, that includes Mexico, China, and Indonesia.


And, yes, I've visited third world nations that make U.S. products.


And, yes, I did happen to notice the children begging in the streets and the tiny wooden shacks built into the hillside. Yep, been there.


Now, what were you saying?

I'm saying your full of shit..How do I know because I have in my life lived and worked in those countries. I deal with them to this day and still visit often for both business and pleasure. I have been invited into and stayed in some of those "tiny wooden shacks built into the hillside." and the inhabitants have a better understanding of quality of life than you can ever imagine because your measure is standard of living. They also have a work ethic that sadly is missing in much of our home workforce.They are proud of themselves and their products and work hard to better themselves and the opportunity for their family and friends. They are aware that the west and at times their own governments have conspired to hold their prospects back and they are determined that it is not going to happen any longer. If you think you can stand in the way of the growth of the Chinese economy or reverse the standing of the Japanese or South East Asian economy, you are living in a place that only you can describe.

There are people begging on the streets of just about every city on the planet. Take a look around you.

 

[muttley600]

I'll state the simple well-known fact again: American companies built products overseas in order to save money. Everyone knows this.

No they don't they do it in order to MAKE money. The venture capital involved in starting projects in emerging markets is huge. I know I have been involved in advising on them. It doesn't save them money, it makes them money, eventually or so they hope.

 

[jmorris]

And that is your opinion. I too have heard Mexican Strats as well as Jap strats and copies that sound better than some Early US Strats. I have also heard pre CBS strats that sound fantastic. So I happen to agree with Flamin lip on this one. Some things I know for fact not opinion.

Fenders selection of woods and materials pre CBS was not as refined as it has become today. Their knowledge of the best criteria for tonewood selection just didn't exist then. That goes for all manufacturers of the time when designing and building solid bodies. The pickups and hardware quality varied quite a bit more than it does today. The manufacturing process had not been refined to the extent that it currently is. You can take two pre CBS strats of similar spec and they will be totally different in terms of response/tone and output. The same applies to modern guitars but the research and knowledge gained over 50 years has made it easier to produce consistent results. That may or may not be a good thing. The results are in no way guaranteed however. That is the nature of the beast. Your and my opinion may differ but we cant get away from those facts.

Oh, that is SO offensive! That word "Jap" Ok for you to use it?

 

[jmorris]

You're funny.


First, I never mentioned Japan or Indonesia (especially Japan).


If you want to harbor some illusions that the Chinese who make Telecasters and the Americans who make telecasters live similar lives, guess again.


You're kidding, right?



I'll state the simple well-known fact again: American companies built products overseas in order to save money. Everyone knows this.


And the people in those countries tend to be dirt poor. And, yes, that includes Mexico, China, and Indonesia.


And, yes, I've visited third world nations that make U.S. products.


And, yes, I did happen to notice the children begging in the streets and the tiny wooden shacks built into the hillside. Yep, been there.


Now, what were you saying?

One of the best responses I've seen in the last 2 days! Right on they money!

 

[muttley600]

Oh, that is SO offensive! That word "Jap" Ok for you to use it?

Yep I have no problem with it, same as if I call you a Yank or you call me a Brit or Limey..well Limey is a bit off because it's normally used in a derogatory way but I can live with it, if you can handle me calling you a ceptic. I don't think I was the one taking offense to the term in the first place but hey thats OK.

 

[jmorris]

And that is your opinion. I too have heard Mexican Strats as well as Jap strats and copies that sound better than some Early US Strats. I have also heard pre CBS strats that sound fantastic. So I happen to agree with Flamin lip on this one. Some things I know for fact not opinion.

Fenders selection of woods and materials pre CBS was not as refined as it has become today. Their knowledge of the best criteria for tonewood selection just didn't exist then. That goes for all manufacturers of the time when designing and building solid bodies. The pickups and hardware quality varied quite a bit more than it does today. The manufacturing process had not been refined to the extent that it currently is. You can take two pre CBS strats of similar spec and they will be totally different in terms of response/tone and output. The same applies to modern guitars but the research and knowledge gained over 50 years has made it easier to produce consistent results. That may or may not be a good thing. The results are in no way guaranteed however. That is the nature of the beast. Your and my opinion may differ but we cant get away from those facts.

That is a gross overstatement.
What part of the manufacturing process has been refinded? Fender and Gibson have at times used as sales propaganda how their guitars have were built like the old days. Be it back to a 4 bolt neck , stagard poles, 1 piece mahogany neck and same neck joint. A certian ohmn output of pickups.The difference of guitars made back in the 50's and 60's as far as 2 guitars of same model sounding different had more to do with the wood choosen than anything else.Will maybe in some cases sound different,yes at times. "totally different in terms of response/tone and output. " as you say is WAY overboard and untrue. It is believed that the Stradivarius violins have their great sound due to not the builders design but more to the wood density. Depending on the growth rate of the wood. When old Stradivarius violins have been examined it was the "wood "that seems to be the major ingredient to their sound.

 

[jmorris]

Yep I have no problem with it, same as if I call you a Yank or you call me a Brit or Limey..well Limey is a bit off because it's normally used in a derogatory way but I can live with it, if you can handle me calling you a ceptic. I don't think I was the one taking offense to the term in the first place but hey thats OK.

They just tried to hang me for that wording yesterday!

 

[muttley600]

That is a gross overstatement.
What part of the manufacturing process has been refinded? Fender and Gibson have at times used as sales propaganda how their guitars have were built like the old days. Be it back to a 4 bolt neck , stagard poles, 1 piece mahogany neck and same neck joint. A certian ohmn output of pickups.The difference of guitars made back in the 50's and 60's as far as 2 guitars of same model sounding different had more to do with the wood choosen than anything else.Will maybe in some cases sound different,yes at times. "totally different in terms of response/tone and output. " as you say is WAY overboard and untrue. It is believed that the Stradivarius violins have their great sound due to not the builders design but more to the wood density. Depending on the growth rate of the wood. When old Stradivarius violins have been examined it was the "wood "that seems to be the major ingredient to their sound.

Be careful because you are moving right into my field of expertise.

Flaming aside, I'm really not trying to dump on you. If you genuinely want some in depth descriptions of materials science and musical acoustics I'd be happy to provide some for you and direct you in the direction of some reading. I'd also be happy to explain as best I can the science behind musical instruments but it has to be as part of a considered thread and not a dumping flame war. No offense meant, honest, but you need some more knowledge of the science before you can throw that one at me and get away with it. As many will tell you here I can be an impatient pain in the butt at times but I do know some stuff when it comes to the subject you are now bringing to the debate.

Like I said if you want to challenge me on musical acoustics and materials science lets take it to another thread and let this one die.

Peace bro..

 

[muttley600]

They just tried to hang me for that wording yesterday!

Not me mate, I have not taken offense to anything you have posted. USA Made, Jap Strat, Brit Pop, it's all just abbreviation. Well USA isn't but you take my point.

In fact I understand your frustration at the whole made in the US thing. We here in the UK went through all that years ago in the 80's and the same arguments were put forward then. Our manufacturing base has been destroyed for a number of reasons, but it is really just part of a larger political debate that will run it's course regardless of what we do or say. It is in the very nature of capitalism and what is needed to feed the beast, but that again is my perspective. I understand business and demand and understand there are many models that describe it. I don't know enough to judge one against the other. I just know that to feed my family and keep my brain satisfied I drive myself to work within the world as I find it.

 

[SHEPPARDB.]

Fade, and everyone else. I am not trying to be a jerk, and Im sorry if Im comming off that way and I apologise for it. Im in a very pissy mood. It really gets under my skin when things are misrepresented as in this Epiphone case. Further more, when the idiots at UPS deliver a package with the box bashed and opened at one end it gets me pissed even more. Third, when I call UPS for the second time to talk about their damage to my guitar and they dont even have a damage claim or case opened up for it....somebody screwed up that makes my blood boil. So..... if I have been a dick I am sorry! My only points were..
1) if it says made in the usa then it should be...not last bit before we ship it out but pretty much built overseas.;
2) USA for me are better..period. Not all of course but most. Jap or whatever have a poor feel,poor sound, cheap parts. Not all, but for me most
3) You have to be an idiot to pay 10 grand or 300 grand for a guitar. Am I glad stuff I bought years ago are worth that..yes. Are they worth it? No way.
4) USA guitars are more desirable, just ask a collector or Gerorge Gruhn.
5) All manufacturers have gone through good and bad periods. I think USA makers have had much less of these.
6) If you have ever been to a vintage guitar show, I mean the really big ones, you will seen a lot of Japs there buying up USA made guitars. Gibson, Fender and Martins. I myself have displayed and sold vintage guitars at these shows where the Japs will walk up to you at your booth, not speaking a word of english, hold up fingers trying to determine how much money you want for a guitar, lay out the cash and walk away with the guitar. The entire process takes less than 2 minutes. No one does that for anything other than USA guitars. They almost dont care about the price, just need to own as much as they can. To me, that id a desirable item.

You seem to know a bit about guitars,vintage and otherwise.You also have a
computer.(for research and the like)What the fuck possessed you to pay that kind of $$$ for an Epi when you know good and damn well it drops in value the second it becomes a used instrument?That was bad judgement on
your end.Send it back while you can.

 

[CoolCat]

yeah take it back. you can get a used Strat US made for $400-500 if you look around...and thats with a case.

although the pickguard maybe be made in....

Our manufacturing base has been destroyed for a number of reasons, but it is really just part of a larger political debate that will run it's course regardless of what we do or say. It is in the very nature of capitalism and what is needed to feed the beast,

hence the fake US flag stickers... amen, oh yeah, and yo bro, and si....yes, our

in a sense we are "manufacturing capitalism"?

 

[the_crowing]

They just tried to hang me for that wording yesterday!

It wasn't for the fact that you used the term "Jap Strat", it was because you said things such as "made in Korea by horribly cheap labor by people that dont really care about workmanship and would just as soon see all Americans die then rape our country." How you say that isn't a racist remark is beyond me.

"Jap Strat" is an abreviation to "Japanese Stratocaster". "Horribly cheap labor by people that dont really care about workmanship and would just as soon see all Americans die then rape our country" is not an abreviation to "Koreans".

 

[IloveJesus]

No they don't they do it in order to MAKE money. The venture capital involved in starting projects in emerging markets is huge. I know I have been involved in advising on them. It doesn't save them money, it makes them money, eventually or so they hope.

Oh, so you're a Brit, are you?

One of those Tories, I imagine (not that Labour is any better---bunch of pansies, all of them).


What do the British even manufacture anymore, chocolates?


Americans may be a bit greedy by manufacturing overseas, but at least we still manufacture some things at home (the way it should be).


Amazing how you somehow tried to twist my opinion about greedy corporations into insults against third-world citizens.


I'll say it again: The reason a company abandons it's own citizen's needs (jobs) is out of greed.

The fact that you are involved in this unnecessary endevour shows your bias.


Go drive a Jaguar (er, Ford).

 

[mixmkr]

Man,if you really think a Mex. strat is sounding better than a pre-CBS, you need a hearing test!The pickups alone on Mex. strats suck bad! Low output, poor tone, no drive.

That is not true, as the ceramic pu on the MiM typically do have a higher output and are "grittier" than the alinco counterparts on the American....typically.

At least they are on the MiM I have VS the American Standards I have. The Alinco give a better "quack" and "bell tone" but the MiM ceramics are better "rockers" and not as good on the "clean" sounds

 

[Zarathustra]

You're really a racist.

"made in Korea by horribly cheap labor by people that dont really care about workmanship and would just as soon see all Americans die then rape our country."

Uh, no, I think they would just as soon want higher wages and look out for their own livelihood than "watch us die" and "rape our country". They're just people working in a guitar factory, not murders and rapists who smuggle heroin into American daycares, chill the hell out.

You're not a better person for buying "better" guitars, you're a worse person for taking the issue of buying an electric-twang-doodler into a national security crisis.

Oh, and waiting for things to accumulate in value is like watching paint dry. You could probably earn money faster by, I dunno, starting a guitar company and watch all the idiots who buy your instruments stick them in cases and wait like brooding crocodiles for their investment to "come back to them". Just label all your guitars with "Made in the USA" and "Handcrafted in 'Merica in Nineteen Ought-Two". The people who are actually making money from your retarded collections are guitar manufacturers, we ought to be coming here to talk about playing the damn things.

 

[random.hero]

you've smoked too much dope over the years.Jap guitars more sought after than American guitars? Lets see my 59 les paul 300 grand, my 68 les paul 12grand, my 60 es 330 blonde 2 pickup p90 guitar 14grand..your Jap les paul copy, 300 bucks...yeah, I guess your right. All the biggest guitar dealers selling pretty much only American guitars and all the Japs at the vintage show buying up all the American guitars left and right..yeah I guess your right.

he said guitars from the 80's man, you are talking about guitars that are much older. then again, i wasnt alive in either time period so why bother

 

[jmorris]

You seem to know a bit about guitars,vintage and otherwise.You also have a
computer.(for research and the like)What the fuck possessed you to pay that kind of $$$ for an Epi when you know good and damn well it drops in value the second it becomes a used instrument?That was bad judgement on
your end.Send it back while you can.

In reality it will go up in value.It was the John Lennon "revolution" epiphone. Only 1965 of them made, onsale at Guitar Center for 1999.00 Already had 2 on Ebay selling for 2200.00 .Thats why.

 

[jmorris]

It wasn't for the fact that you used the term "Jap Strat", it was because you said things such as "made in Korea by horribly cheap labor by people that dont really care about workmanship and would just as soon see all Americans die then rape our country." How you say that isn't a racist remark is beyond me.

"Jap Strat" is an abreviation to "Japanese Stratocaster". "Horribly cheap labor by people that dont really care about workmanship and would just as soon see all Americans die then rape our country" is not an abreviation to "Koreans".

It isnt, they hate us, I dont hate them!

 

[32-20-Blues]

And, yes, I did happen to notice the children begging in the streets and the tiny wooden shacks built into the hillside. Yep, been there.


Now, what were you saying?

With respect, I've been to many third world countries, but saw more beggars in Santa Monica, CA than I did anywhere else in the world.

 

[32-20-Blues]

Oh, so you're a Brit, are you?

One of those Tories, I imagine (not that Labour is any better---bunch of pansies, all of them).


What do the British even manufacture anymore, chocolates?


Americans may be a bit greedy by manufacturing overseas, but at least we still manufacture some things at home (the way it should be).


Amazing how you somehow tried to twist my opinion about greedy corporations into insults against third-world citizens.


I'll say it again: The reason a company abandons it's own citizen's needs (jobs) is out of greed.

The fact that you are involved in this unnecessary endevour shows your bias.


Go drive a Jaguar (er, Ford).

You're an idiot.