Help ID'ing old Epiphone bass

[Pinky]

Through an estate I have acquired an old upright bass. It's an Epiphone with a B4 / 4 B / B-4 under the Epiphone brand name. I can't find a serial number on it (looked with a flashlight, maybe just not looking in the right place?). From what I could find on google it's dated around 1950. No cracks, some scuffing and minor dents, etc but seems to have all original wood and parts.

Looks like (I'll take photos later once I determine if it's worth restoring or reselling):

Anyone have anything interesting to add? I'm pretty sure it's probably only worth a few hundred.

There's one string on it which has been left loose. I tightened and played it to check for rattles and it sounds fine.

 

[muttley600]

Can't comment on the value, but make sure the soundpost is in and upright before stringing it and bringing it up to pitch.

Nice find..

 

[andydeedpoll]

learn to play it! double bass is too cool for school.

hehe.

nice instrument

Andrew.

 

[rayc]

Sorry, no idea with ID BUT if it plays well enough it'd be worth several hundred - even the cheap Chinese & Korean knockoffs all over the net are a few hundred & they're, almost uniformly, dreadful.
Line the bridge up ( easy rule of thumb - in line with the cross points on the F Holes., check that the pegs will stay put & hold tune & if it sounds good get a set of tailpiece fine tuners - whether you keep it or sell it the fine tuners will "value add" considerably.
Oh & get a Bow (very expensive but...) & hardcase if you keep it.
i did find this though when researching http://www.senny.com/site/updates/news.htm
I'm obvioulsy dogging your hunting heels so I'll won't follow the same thread.

 

[Horsedoc]

I think the value is being grossly underestimated. A cheap entry level string bass would cost close to $2000. Old Kays from this period go for that much and more. Not too sure about this one, but old Epis are very highly regarded instruments. Find someone who knows about these things before you do something stupid- like sell it for a few hundred bucks. Unless you want to sell it to me.

 

[Milnoque]

Epiphone upright basses were and are very popular with rockabilly and bluegrass players. In their day they were also popular among jazz players. They were introduced in the late forties but the fifties were their heyday. Production ended rather quickly after gibson purchased the company in 1957.

The B-4 is the middle of the line.

Here is a link to one offered for sale by a dealer.
http://www.fretwellbass.com/uprightbass.php?bassid=1

Great find, Thanks for sharing

 

[Pinky]

Thanks for the feedback!

Frankly I'm torn whether to keep it. I like the idea of learning it (the sound you get out of one, like John Patitucci, cannot be duplicated). But I also like the idea of maybe buying 2 basses that fit the styles of music I play.

I don't know what the piece is called on the bridge, but there's 4 round pegs that help keep the end of the string in place and there's only 2 on the bass (G and E). There's an E string on it, that obviously needs to be replaced.

If finding general information on the bass is this difficult, how difficult is it going to be to find the 2 nuts I'll need? Is there an online store for upright bass parts?

I'm off to check elderly instruments...

 

[Hard2Hear]

give these guys a shout, they'll have the parts you need. Theyre here in Cincy and bass is all they do.
http://www.stringbass.com/

 

[muttley600]

Thanks for the feedback!

Frankly I'm torn whether to keep it. I like the idea of learning it (the sound you get out of one, like John Patitucci, cannot be duplicated). But I also like the idea of maybe buying 2 basses that fit the styles of music I play.

I don't know what the piece is called on the bridge, but there's 4 round pegs that help keep the end of the string in place and there's only 2 on the bass (G and E). There's an E string on it, that obviously needs to be replaced.

If finding general information on the bass is this difficult, how difficult is it going to be to find the 2 nuts I'll need? Is there an online store for upright bass parts?

I'm off to check elderly instruments...

The parts you'll need to get it playing would be.

A decent nut. Cant see from the picture what condition yours is in.

A Bridge, From the picture it looks like you have one that fits OK. The feet need to be in perfect contact with the belly and lined up between the nicks in the F holes. It should also be sitting perfectly upright.

A tailpiece, yours seems to be OK it just anchors the strings. You see all sorts of fancy attachments on them but you don't necessarily need them.

A soundpost. This is inside the bass and is fitted just behind the bridge foot on the treble side. The fit should be snug and contact the back and top perfectly. They are fitted dry in other words no glue. When you change strings do it one at a time to stop it from coming loose or falling over. It couples the top and back plates acoustically and also performs an important structural role. very important that you get this done by some one who knows what they are doing. Repairs to double bass' are expensive.

It may be worth getting it looked over for a setup estimate. All violin family instruments need to be setup and kept in good order and enough tension on the strings to stop the bridge and soundpost moving out of position and to avoid damage.

Get it playing and keep it. Decent a decent bass is real hard to find and you'll regret selling it on at sometime in the future. Good luck with it.

 

[Pinky]

I'll definitely give the cincy shop a shout.

I haven't looked inside for the location (existence) of the soundpost.

Note- the picture is of one exactly like mine. I still need to take some photos of mine (maybe later this week). I'm very serious about keeping it but I'm starting to fear the setup costs (bridge pins, strings, hard shell case, etc). There's a few shops locally too I should call, both for estimate/sale and for parts.

Just a FYI, I'm out of work and this was gifted to me. I can't justify spending hundreds for personal use, so I may have to sell it or have someone cover the refurb costs. We'll see, it's really an awesome find and my girlfriend's family heir loom. She's not attached but I think it would be neat to get it playable, and leave it in the living room unless I use it for a recording. The bass if so big, it will take up an entire corner.

 

[Milnoque]

Be sitting when they tell you what the strings will cost. Be lying down when they price you a good bow. The other parts aren't very expensive. You won't need a bow right away, but you will need one to ever get good at intonation.

 

[Roguetitan]

I think the value is being grossly underestimated. A cheap entry level string bass would cost close to $2000. Old Kays from this period go for that much and more. Not too sure about this one, but old Epis are very highly regarded instruments. Find someone who knows about these things before you do something stupid- like sell it for a few hundred bucks. Unless you want to sell it to me.

+1
that Bass is very rare.
and yes the value of that bass is very grossly underestimated especially the condition the instrument is in.

that bass will probably apraise for 3 to 5k could bring more at an auction

Nice find

 

[Roguetitan]

I'll definitely give the cincy shop a shout.

I haven't looked inside for the location (existence) of the soundpost.

Note- the picture is of one exactly like mine. I still need to take some photos of mine (maybe later this week). I'm very serious about keeping it but I'm starting to fear the setup costs (bridge pins, strings, hard shell case, etc). There's a few shops locally too I should call, both for estimate/sale and for parts.

Just a FYI, I'm out of work and this was gifted to me. I can't justify spending hundreds for personal use, so I may have to sell it or have someone cover the refurb costs. We'll see, it's really an awesome find and my girlfriend's family heir loom. She's not attached but I think it would be neat to get it playable, and leave it in the living room unless I use it for a recording. The bass if so big, it will take up an entire corner.

I would like to see some closeups of the bridge, string heighth at the nut and at the end of the fingerboard (relief) and a pic of the nut with the strings on to get a better Idea of the setup. you may just need to get a restring and the bridge properly set for intonation but there again you may just need to tune it and play it.
I have the same strings on my upright for the last 20 years and it gets plenty of play time, an acoustic upright can only be so bright.

get out the lemon oil and polish that baby up.

 

[rayc]

Yeah, the strings'll cope if they're not corroded. The bridge isn't too expensive to replace, the fine tuners aren't much either. The bow - well, in your circumstances, pluck & slap'd be the go - hideously expensive buggers.
I took my 'cello for fine tuners, bridge notching & placement as well as peg grit & rosin - the lot cost less than AUS$150.
Hard case, or any bag is a bonus just treat it well, on its side or tilted well back in a corner (with a noose?).
If it is a 50's Epi, & based on the bass sites I've looked at, it seems to be - it's valued at quite a bit & WORTH more.
Have you looked in side for contraband? Little bags of green?

 

[Pinky]

lol at rayc

I'll try to get some picks up. The cincy shop got back to me with a string quote, but I'm not sure they quotes the right part of the bridge so I'm waiting to hear back on that.

Haven't had time to look into local availability of parts, will start doing that next week. May not have photos until then either since the bass is still on a sofa at her deceased father's house. Need to find or make a stand for it.

After talking with her and her borther it looks like we're going to keep it as a family heir loom. Aparently her grandfather was a national ranking pianist (Bugsy Bachinsky) and this bass was played in his band. Will probably get it playing first, then get it appraised (antiques roadshow? ).

 

[muttley600]

lol at rayc

I'll try to get some picks up. The cincy shop got back to me with a string quote, but I'm not sure they quotes the right part of the bridge so I'm waiting to hear back on that.

What part of the bridge? The bridge needs to be set correctly it should be between the f holes and line up with the nicks. It can go forward a little or back a little but not too much. It needs to be in front of the soundpost not on it or too far ahead of it. The bridge is designed to be where it is to give you the correct intonation. If the intonation is wrong then you need to lower the bridge or in the worst case have a neck reset or fingerborad realigned. Only a decent setup shop or a bass teacher can tell you this. I'd strongly advise you get it looked over before you do anything, even cleaning up with lemon oil.

 

[Pinky]

What part of the bridge? The bridge needs to be set correctly it should be between the f holes and line up with the nicks. It can go forward a little or back a little but not too much. It needs to be in front of the soundpost not on it or too far ahead of it. The bridge is designed to be where it is to give you the correct intonation. If the intonation is wrong then you need to lower the bridge or in the worst case have a neck reset or fingerborad realigned. Only a decent setup shop or a bass teacher can tell you this. I'd strongly advise you get it looked over before you do anything, even cleaning up with lemon oil.

What I was referring to was the metal rings wher ethe strings attach to the bottom of the bass (on a standard guitar it's called a bridge, but I know what you're referring to is the actual bridge of the double bass). The actual bridge is fine and shouldn't need any adjusting. I think having the one string on helped keep its position. I'm going to be cautious and we do have a few local string shops that could probabbly help with setup if needed.

Still need to take photos and such which will be Monday or Tuesday next week. I'm ready to order strings now after confirming the parts I though I needed are either not needed or included with the strings. Strings and stand to be ordered as soon as I confirm I have a soundpost in there.

 

[muttley600]

What I was referring to was the metal rings wher ethe strings attach to the bottom of the bass (on a standard guitar it's called a bridge, but I know what you're referring to is the actual bridge of the double bass). The actual bridge is fine and shouldn't need any adjusting. I think having the one string on helped keep its position. I'm going to be cautious and we do have a few local string shops that could probabbly help with setup if needed.

Still need to take photos and such which will be Monday or Tuesday next week. I'm ready to order strings now after confirming the parts I though I needed are either not needed or included with the strings. Strings and stand to be ordered as soon as I confirm I have a soundpost in there.

Are you talking about the tailpiece in that case? If so whats up with the one you have? I think your right though a picture in this case will speak volumes.

 

[Roguetitan]

What I was referring to was the metal rings wher ethe strings attach to the bottom of the bass (on a standard guitar it's called a bridge, but I know what you're referring to is the actual bridge of the double bass). The actual bridge is fine and shouldn't need any adjusting. I think having the one string on helped keep its position. I'm going to be cautious and we do have a few local string shops that could probabbly help with setup if needed.
Still need to take photos and such which will be Monday or Tuesday next week. I'm ready to order strings now after confirming the parts I though I needed are either not needed or included with the strings. Strings and stand to be ordered as soon as I confirm I have a soundpost in there.

look through the right Fhole, the sound post is a 3/4" spruce or pine dowell going from the bass top to the back.

Keeping tention on the strings also help to keep the sound post in position
if there was tension on the g string chances are that the post is still in place.
they have to be jared pertty good for the post to fall however chances are more likely that a sound post will fall on a Cello or Bass before one will fall on a violin or viola. if you can hear something rolling around inside of the bass there is a 99.9% you are hearing the sound post rolling around
the sound post is pretty visible in the right side f hole just behind the bridge.

good tip to remember replacing double bass strings lay the bass on its back and only replace one string at a time and bring it up to pitch before replacing the next string this method will help to ensure that the sound post don't fall while changing the strings.

and never relieve tension on the strings, releving tension on the strings can cause the sound post to fall.

if the sound post has fallen it is really no big deal for a good luthier can have one fitted and set in just a matter of a few minuites especially with a bass. The most time consuming part abut setting a sound post is finding that sweet spot where it will render the best volume. the smaller the instrument the more tedious it is to fit and set a sound post.
most cases the sound post that has fallen only needs to be reset unless the instrument has set a long time without it in place with tension off the strings. in this case over a period of time the body can expand to where the original post is too loose to reuse.

as I said before the lemon oil will be just fine to use on the instrument to clean and shine the woods finish. Lemon oil also helps to replace the woods natural oils that has been lost due to ageing, dried out wood has a tendancy to crack a lot easier than wood that gets a lemon oil treatment from time to time plus lemon oil is s lot less expensive than a humidor plus it makes your instrument smell lemony fresh

 

[muttley600]

as I said before the lemon oil will be just fine to use on the instrument to clean and shine the woods finish. Lemon oil also helps to replace the woods natural oils that has been lost due to ageing, dried out wood has a tendancy to crack a lot easier than wood that gets a lemon oil treatment from time to time plus lemon oil is s lot less expensive than a humidor plus it makes your instrument smell lemony fresh

Sorry Roguetitan but you have persisted with the lemon oil thing.

A word on why this might not be appropriate. Lemon oil is a non drying oil. It is suitable for your unfinished fingerboards on guitars etc.

Violin school luthiers prefer other oils for their fingerboards but thats another story. It would also not do much harm if you use it on a synthetic finish. Violin family instruments are finished with either a spirit varnish or an oil varnish (this x bass may not be!). As a rule they are soft and wear quite easily. They can be effected by contaminants. Most violin school luthiers will advise cleaning with a very slightly damp cloth or in extreme cases a mild alcohol wash. I wouldn't suggest you do either yet. Just a wipe with a dry clean cloth. More importantly those old instruments often have cracks that are barely visible at first, some are. If you get oil in them you are increasing the work needed to repair them. I've had many a good session cleaning oil and dirt out of splits and top cracks before they can be fixed with hide glue. Also the common way in which hide glue is separated is by use of localised water (cotton wool twisted into strands and layed on the glue joint or crack is the normal way) and gentle heat. Should your bass need any cracks re-set or parts unglued, cracks closed whatever any oil there is going to make the job harder. It will also help to seal dirt into any splits cracks or loose glue joints. They should be cleaned dry and re-glued first.

Trust me as someone who has seen first hand the problems this can present. Your choice but I wouldn't clean with lemon oil in this case. If you want it to smell nice hang a car air freshner off the tuning peg.