Do you really buy that expensive recording software?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Fantastic_Mad
  • Start date Start date

Do you buy that expensive recording software, or just download it?(Read authors post)

  • I buy it. I like to support the creator.

    Votes: 564 41.2%
  • I download it. To hell with the creator.

    Votes: 305 22.3%
  • I do both. I have mixed feelings on the subject.

    Votes: 501 36.6%

  • Total voters
    1,370
Status
Not open for further replies.
Are you saying that something isn't illegal because it's not enforced?

I'm saying it isn't enforced (as far as I can tell) because of the mitigating factors that I was asked about. If they weren't there this would happen all of the time and people wouldn't use warez anymore because of the risk. But Those that wish to "protect" the software indusrty from piracy for the GREAT majority of the cases only seek monitary settlements. So what does that tell you this is about... morals or money?
 
It doesn't really matter if it's about money or morals or both. Plain and simple it is wrong and illegal.

I think you'd feel better about yourself if you'd just stop lying, cheating and stealing and whatever else you do wrong, as would all of us.
 
I think you'd feel better about yourself if you'd just stop lying, cheating and stealing and whatever else you do wrong, as would all of us.

I didn't realize I was speaking with the inafllible Jesus Christ himself? Please continue to stand in judgment of me when I showed that someone who has been very critical of me is also an infringer of copyrights. but no... He's cool and I'm not. For that matter I see people posting cover tunes they did all the time. It is also illegal to do that... by why no outrage? because nobody told you to make an issue of it perhaps? Copyright laws have been pushed to protect profits instead of ideas. It's just the plain truth. Sorry I'm the person who has to say it.

You're all as self serving as you think I am. Don't mistakenly think any of you are any better than me.

That's the basis of christianity isn't it, something for all you people judging me.
 
Originally posted by MrT

Copyright laws have been pushed to protect profits instead of ideas.

I agree. It is sad though, that without that financial push, a lot of programs we use today may not have been made or updated as frequently because the programmers/code monkeys have to make a living somehow. There is a point where they (or the company) have enough money to live with however, and then start making exorbitant profits. I don't know if there is an answer. If everybody knew how to obtain/used cracked software, then who is going to want to be a programmer?

Originally posted by MrT

Distributing it is and using it is (kind of, haven't heard about any punishment other than monitary for this)

There are some interesting cases coming up, which are definitely going to set a precedent. This particular example is on the extreme end of the scale, regardless, if you stole one car or 100, you still stole a car.

Excerpt of;

Accused web pirate back behind bars
By Leonie Lamont
July 8, 2004



"An accused Australian internet pirate is back in a Sydney jail after the United States won the latest round in its landmark fight to have him extradited to face copyright charges."

"It is not claimed that Griffiths, who is unemployed and lives with his father, made any money from the alleged piracy."

"Griffiths is making Australian legal history as the first extradition case under copyright law. If the extradition and a trial in the US go ahead, he faces a maximum 10-year sentence for copyright and conspiracy charges, and a fine of up to $500,000. Eleven DrinkOrDie members already have been convicted in the US."


Whole Article here


He was sentenced to 51 months jail it looks like




Ok, so if we leave the "is using pirated software stealing" bit for a minute...Mrt, in your opinion, is re-distributing pirated software for non profit purposes, distributing goods illegally? US courts seem to think so.

When everybodies [/flame], its an interesting topic to discuss.
 
Last edited:
Read the last few pages before you jump to any assumptions, few pages back i mentioned i had previously. However i don't care if people do or don't, we're having a discussion about whether it is stealing to use pirated software.

Awesome contribution to the thread though robin.

The question is moot, get over it.
 
It is to you, but the rest of us are still discussing it. If it bothers you, i'd suggest not opening this thread.
 
Last edited:
I will admit a wrong - I jumped on the fact that you'd more than likely copied a CD (for your own use). However, in retrospect, that was groundless because after a bit of thinking:

Pirating is more (at least to me) like stealing, copying and selling on for self profit. I wouldn't have any guilt in clicking a free download if it's available, or grabbing a CD-R of Zeppelin II from a mate. Someone (can't be arsed to go back see, whoever it was) compared it to finding a wallet containing ID and money and keeping it. I think this is a bit extreme:

If someone stole my wallet, I'd hate 'em for it. (Moralistic.) A software company president isn't going to hate me personally* for downloading their software for free (because I can). They're just going to think, "How can we stop people doing this?" (Materialistic.)

Since extremes seem to be the vogue in this thread, we could go yet another leap and say, well, go live in Africa with the starving not-quite-so-lucky, i.e., those without mums and dads that paid for an education to learn, for example, how to write software and therefore have the wherewithal to start a business in the first place.

OK, I step down. Didn't need to offend or be offended.

Good luck with your discussion guys.

Sincerely.


* certainly, at least, if I'd admitted it to him in a pub after we'd downed a few beers together and he already got to know my charming self.
 
I will admit a wrong - I jumped on the fact that you'd more than likely copied a CD (for your own use). However, in retrospect, that was groundless because after a bit of thinking:

Pirating is more (at least to me) like stealing, copying and selling on for self profit. I wouldn't have any guilt in clicking a free download if it's available, or grabbing a CD-R of Zeppelin II from a mate. Someone (can't be arsed to go back see, whoever it was) compared it to finding a wallet containing ID and money and keeping it. I think this is a bit extreme:

If someone stole my wallet, I'd hate 'em for it. (Moralistic.) A software company president isn't going to hate me personally* for downloading their software for free (because I can). They're just going to think, "How can we stop people doing this?" (Materialistic.)

Since extremes seem to be the vogue in this thread, we could go yet another leap and say, well, go live in Africa with the starving not-quite-so-lucky, i.e., those without mums and dads that paid for an education to learn, for example, how to write software and therefore have the wherewithal to start a business in the first place.

OK, I step down. Didn't need to offend or be offended.

Good luck with your discussion guys.

Sincerely.


* certainly, at least, if I'd admitted it to him in a pub after we'd downed a few beers together and he already got to know my charming self.
 
Please continue to stand in judgment of me when I showed that someone who has been very critical of me is also an infringer of copyrights. but no... He's cool and I'm not.
You made this about you and if you want my opinion I think you're immature and you'll grow out of it. Someday, I think, I pray, you'll realize that it is better to be charitable to your neighbor instead of stealing from him.

For that matter I see people posting cover tunes they did all the time. It is also illegal to do that...by why no outrage? because nobody told you to make an issue of it perhaps? .
It's not necessarily illegal but that's a whole different subject. If you're interested why don't you start another thread on that? :)

Don't mistakenly think any of you are any better than me.
Poor, poor pitiful me...poor poor pitiful me. You are kiddin right?
That's the basis of christianity isn't it, something for all you people judging me.
The basis of Christianity is in the Bible which is a good read if you ever get a chance.

My dear Watson, what are you saying? It's ok to steal from someone else but not from you?
 
Actually, I hate to side with the thief, but cover tunes bring up a good point.
A lot of bands make money playing covers. This IS illegal. Even if it weren't, though, is it not worse than downloading a song for personal listening? If someone is making a profit, then the person who "owns" the songs should be getting their cut.

I remember it was a big thing back in the 80's in some of the clubs I was playing. We were told "no covers", as the owners were approached, and were being investigated for allowing covers to be played without paying for the right to use them. I really didn't understand what the difference was between bands playing covers for money, or someone dropping money in a juke box, but there was.

I post my songs on NoWhereRadio.com, and there is something in the rules against posting covers, as it is illegal.
 
Originally posted by Robin Watson

Pirating is more (at least to me) like stealing, copying and selling on for self profit. I wouldn't have any guilt in clicking a free download if it's available, or grabbing a CD-R of Zeppelin II from a mate. Someone (can't be arsed to go back see, whoever it was) compared it to finding a wallet containing ID and money and keeping it. I think this is a bit extreme:

Originally posted by Wreckd504

Are you the kind of person who finds a wallet with cash in it, and the address of the person inside...takes the cash and says oh well they shouldn't have dropped it in the first place. You don't have to be made to do the right thing, you make the choice whether to or not.

Hey Robin, I think the negative feedback was unnecessary. Apologies for the sarcastic remark in response to your comment, eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind I guess. *shrugs*

I think may have written my example a little ambiguously.

In responding to MrT’s (as far as I know) guiltless piracy, I was contrasting the culpability, or lack of ,you would feel if you had the opportunity to do something that you know is wrong. However, because you know you won’t get caught (or there is very little chance of it), and have the opening to remain anonymous, it seems that is what allows you to do it.

My example falls short because there isn’t one owner who has lost their software, however the principle of guiltlessly committing an anonymous crime is still there. I think MrT has previously been arguing that he believes it isn’t a crime. Recently US courts have prosecuted a number of end users responsible for distributing pirated software (which can be just sharing the file on a p2p network), under not for profit circumstances.

It's interesting hearing peoples logic and justification of their actions. I am also aware there are bigger things in this world to worry about, but this is whats up for discussion, so I’m not mentioning Africa :)


Originally posted by toker41

A lot of bands make money playing covers. This IS illegal

In Australia, the Australian Recording Industry Assocation collects a fee from venues that gets divided among artists every year. Some venues who don't pay this fee only allow original music. If they have a DJ that plays recorded music for the crowd, then the bar has payed some sort of royalty licensing. Same goes for cafes with radios, companies with commercial on hold music, everyone pays a certain amount to ARIA which is then distributed to artists. I've no idea how they work out who gets what though.

On the other hand, if you were playing covers on the street (busking for instance) then you'd probably be on the poop list with some variety of music industry enforcers.

But you'd probably also be way under their radar. (unless you happened to be in front of their office or something)
 
Last edited:
Hey Robin, I think the negative feedback was unnecessary.

I hope you're not referring to the 'negging' thing, I've never negged anyone, I'm not sure I even know how to. Anyway, enough negativity from me. Glad we could reach an agree to disagree, cheers.
 
A lot of bands make money playing covers. This IS illegal
In Australia, the Australian Recording Industry Assocation collects a fee from venues that gets divided among artists every year.
Chirst, I put Toker on my ignore list and his idiocy still bleeds through to my screen.

There is NOTHING illegal about a band playing cover songs for money. It's handled basically the same way here in the US as it is in Australia; ASCAP collects fees from the venue, not from the bands. This is true for live acts, karaoke, DJing, and juke box playing. I think they even have a line item on their form for the public playing of radio broadcast.

How it works is there is an ASCAP form that the venue is supposed to fill out that is not unlike an IRS form in that it has boxes that the venue fills in that describe the type of music performance thay have there (live bands, jukebox, etc.), along with a best guess estimate of how many hours or songs (I forget the metric) of each one they expect to be performed ther ein a typical year. Then those quantities are multiplied by some basic rates for each performance type. Ad dthose prodcuts together, and you have the cost of your venue's ASCAP license for a calendar year. Send the form in with a check, and your venue is good to go for the next year.

ASCAP then turns around and uses some kind of formulas based upon their market research on popularity of artists within each genre of live performance, and distributes the money based upon those figures. If my band plays 3 one hour sets one night at an ASCAP venue, the Rolling Stones may get $.0001 for that gig while Graham Parker may only get $.0000001. They both get paid based on likelyhood that my band may have played one of their songs, not whether we actually playd any of them or not.

Now, if the venue is not paying any ASCAP fees for any of that stuff, and they hire my band to come in and play covers, then the venue is liable for action from ASCAP. However, my band *is not*, because it's not up to the band, it's handled on the venue level.

G.
 
So, using other peoples songs to make money isn't stealing?

The band is making money. They pay no fees, or royalties. Yet they do no wrong. However, If I download it for personal listening, I am a thief? Thus, by your statement, stealing is a matter of legal perspective? The law decides what is "moral"?

BTW, I work very closely with a good amount of clubs, and I don't know ANY that pay that fee.
 
Last edited:
So, using other peoples songs to make money isn't stealing?

The band is making money. They pay no fees, or royalties. Yet they do no wrong. However, If I download it for personal listening, I am a thief? Thus, by your statement, stealing is a matter of legal perspective? The law decides what is "moral"?
You've got it backwards, morals decide what the law is.
 
Nice counter.:D

However, the laws do not always represent, or are created from morals. Some laws are created out of special interest, and greed. Some are created to protect the guilty. Some are just plain ridiculous. So, just because it is illegal, does not mean that it is immoral. In turn, just because it's immoral, does not mean it's illegal.

I think we all have an inner voice that lets us know when we are doing something that is "wrong". Some ignore it, some rationalize it, but we all know it.

Kinda like how SouthsideGlen knows it's wrong to be a c*cksucker, but is anyway.:rolleyes:
 
Originally Posted by Toker41
So, using other peoples songs to make money isn't stealing?

The band is making money. They pay no fees, or royalties.
You've got it backwards, morals decide what the law is.
The fees and royalties ARE paid. They are paid by the venues who pay the fee for the license, not by the band.

The problem is that it's a logistic nightmare to expect the bands to pay based upon the exact material they perform. What happens when someone comes up and makes a special request? Or what happens if the band plays a medely of covers? Or when the band plays a random mix over their PA during the set breaks? What about when a band plays the Joe Cocker arrangement of "The Letter" on Friday, but the Box Tops arrangement on Saturday; or more to the point, plays their own arrangement not previously recorded? It's not like a radio station where they're expected to log every single song they play,how much of that song they play, and whether it's an original arrangment or one taken mostly from a previously published chart.

ASCAP recognizes that this is not realistic to expect from your average cover band. Nor is it realistic (or fair) to expect that from the venue. Your average cover band venue has no idea who they may or may not book a couple of months down the line, let alone the content of their exact playlist. The same is true of juke boxes and karaoke and playing their favorite FM station over the house system.

So instead they worked out a system where the venue simply buys a yearly license that itimizes the categories of performance they will offer (live, juke box, etc.) and a reasonable estimate of how much time and/or songs (again, I forget which) they may host over the year. The fees from these yearly licenses from clubs and bars and music halls around the continent are pooled into an account out of which the artists and publishers are paid their percentage based upon estimates based upon market research that indicates the popularity and overall percentage of all the cover work out there that they could reasonably lay claim to.

It's not a perfect system, by far, but it's workable. And it does ensure that the artists, composers and publishers are getting a somewhat reasonable source of revenue for the use of their property by cover bands, karaoke singers, juke box use, and public use of radio broadcast.

So no, there's nothing for the cover band to feel guilty about because they are not stealing anything. The onus for payment is on the venue that hires them; if anything it's the venues who do not pay ASCAP fees who should feel guilty. Remember, it's the venues that are ultimately making the money off the performance; the band is really just the company hired to perform the service. The money the band gets comes out of the revenue generated by the venue.

But most legitimite clubs (at least around here) that regularly feature live entertainment have no problem paying the ASCAP fees; the fees realtive to the revenue in liquor sales that good live entertainment helps to generate is a tiny price to pay as insurance against their business being put in legal jeopardy.

Everybody gets paid, everybody makes a fair share of the profit (including the original performers/publishers), everybody is happy, and no laws have been broken.

G.
 
The band is still making money by using other peoples songs. The venue's fee takes care of the profit made by the venue. The band pays nothing, and makes a profit.
How is that not stealing?

So, if no law is broken, it is not wrong? Is this what makes it wrong to download music, the fact that it is illegal?
 
Last edited:
The band makes a profit from playing cover songs and is paid a fee from the venue for that. The bands performance fee would be based upon how much the venue has to pay to the Industry rights association. Definitely not stealing. They don't hand over an envelope of cash at the end night, but rest assured its been accounted for somewhere.

Downloading music is illegal because the artist hasn’t been compensated.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top