Vocal Recording: 1 take vs. punch-ins?

[strat0tele]

I'm really terrible at singing, so I try to learn the song all the way through. Since my pitch accuracy is poor, every line is a punch in. I also use a midi track to sing along with. I'm a filthy cheater.

 

[Freudian Slip]

Does nobody record several takes and blend the best passages from each take?

That's basicly what I said a few posts up from yours


F.S.

 

[Zed10R]

Does nobody record several takes and blend the best passages from each take?

You bet. Not only "the best" from each take, but generally, as long as all the takes are on pitch, on time, and the phrasing is near perfectly the same, I'll blend all the takes together and pan slightly. Sounds great for what I do.

I've got no problem punching in. For the songs I write, I just CAN"T maintain the level of energy and strength take after take. I'll do 50 or more takes of a song before I feel like I've done the best I am capable of doing. I have to punch in sometimes. if I didn't I'd fall over dead. My energy is at 100%, so it's not too tough to match that. I just need to go balls out every time. But I imagine that most other genres...like pop, country, and rap for example.....doing the whole song in one take would present different challenges.

 

[Freudian Slip]

You bet. Not only "the best" from each take, but generally, as long as all the takes are on pitch, on time, and the phrasing is near perfectly the same, I'll blend all the takes together and pan slightly. Sounds great for what I do.

QUOTE]

I've got some of my best backups with the several take technique too buy messing with phrasing & pitch while tracking. Some times

Like you said though you can get a nice full sound blending or decide to blend 50/50 for a choursy sound. Lots to mess with.

F.S.

 

[Mindset]

You bet. Not only "the best" from each take, but generally, as long as all the takes are on pitch, on time, and the phrasing is near perfectly the same, I'll blend all the takes together and pan slightly. Sounds great for what I do.

I've got no problem punching in. For the songs I write, I just CAN"T maintain the level of energy and strength take after take. I'll do 50 or more takes of a song before I feel like I've done the best I am capable of doing. I have to punch in sometimes. if I didn't I'd fall over dead. My energy is at 100%, so it's not too tough to match that. I just need to go balls out every time. But I imagine that most other genres...like pop, country, and rap for example.....doing the whole song in one take would present different challenges.

When recording rap/hip hop, most of my clients lay down a few dozen takes per verse, punching in here and there. I myself, usually try and do it with 1 take. However, my style is different from others. I also blend all takes together just as long as they are perfect or near perfect.

Also while tracking bands, I also notice that they rarely do punch ins. I tried last week to punch someone in, but the way they play is always sometimes different than the take before, that being more difficult to punch in.

 

[Zed10R]

Also while tracking bands, I also notice that they rarely do punch ins. I tried last week to punch someone in, but the way they play is always sometimes different than the take before, that being more difficult to punch in.

That is exactly why I don't work with just anybody. I would be ripping people's faces off if they couldn't play their own shit the same way twice. There are not many things I have less patience for than that. Any one who has any real skill and talent with whatever instrument(s) they play, if faced with the need to punch in, can do so seamlessly.

 

[Freudian Slip]

That is exactly why I don't work with just anybody. I would be ripping people's faces off if they couldn't play their own shit the same way twice. There are not many things I have less patience for than that. Any one who has any real skill and talent with whatever instrument(s) they play, if faced with the need to punch in, can do so seamlessly.

We are talking vocals here, more effected by mood, energy, enviroment and your health than any instrument. You can't touch them or see them. You can practice them and get training to be far more consistant, but it does not sound like you would ever record the Stones, areosmith or any other band that is highly produced if you are going to apply that standard to vocals.

I personally think that your way better off with one take with no punches or fixes. The point of singing it 2 or 3 times all the way is that if you have a good singer that knows the song, you have a good chance of pulling it off. If not you have a good chance of robbing from another take that will match in intensity & emotion beacause the line or word will be taken from the same part of the jouney threw the song (for the singer) as what you are trying to replace. If the singer was starting to get a little short on air it will be the same in all takes. Where as when you punch the singer could likely have a full lung of air and it would sound out of place.

In the case of rap with the critical timing issues for fast phrases that are going to be blended, doubled, etc. I can certanly see a several take process just because of the more demanding rythmic qualitys of it.


I can also see punching every verse as an effective way of maintaining consistansy and power if need be. I just don't see two word here and there.

And of course if want to pay me good money to do 20 takes. Guess what. Twenty takes it is. Hell I'll set loop record and see you in a half an hour.

I guess if you got people beating down your door you can be choosy if ya want.

I'd personally rather turn down the skin head hate band and work with a younger band that is not super dooper, but pretty good.


Just my opinion.


F.S.

 

[chestwick91]

how cares what method you use as long as it sounds good in the end....If you have to use punch ins....sometime its sucks cause it takes forever
but thats the industry sometimes

 

[Lomas]

I don't use punch in 'cause I'm a newbie at recording and I just never believed it could sound good. I guess I'm wrong? I just don't understand howit can work with acoustic guitar for example.

But I'm kind of glad it's been that way, because now I've been doing my tracks one take no matter what it is. I figure if I ever get to record in real studio I will have a much easier time than if I was "spoiled" by not having to learn to play a whole song through.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

That is exactly why I don't work with just anybody. I would be ripping people's faces off if they couldn't play their own shit the same way twice. There are not many things I have less patience for than that. Any one who has any real skill and talent with whatever instrument(s) they play, if faced with the need to punch in, can do so seamlessly.

Bingo!

As much as I try to save punches for use only in emergency, the performers have to be at a level where they can punch, if necessary, just like the engineer has to. It's called "being ready to record". If you can't play the same fill or riff twice or at least play it with the same feel twice, you're not ready to hit that big red button.

We're not talking perfection here, We're not saying that you gotta be Yithsak Perlman before you can walk into a sound room. Just know your material well enough to be able to play it with some consistancy when called for, or - often forgotten but just as important - with planned variation when called for, and not just hope that you can get through it well enough to stick it. If your not there yet, you're walking in front of the recorders too early.

G.

 

[Mindset]

Bingo!

As much as I try to save punches for use only in emergency, the performers have to be at a level where they can punch, if necessary, just like the engineer has to. It's called "being ready to record". If you can't play the same fill or riff twice or at least play it with the same feel twice, you're not ready to hit that big red button.

We're not talking perfection here, We're not saying that you gotta be Yithsak Perlman before you can walk into a sound room. Just know your material well enough to be able to play it with some consistancy when called for, or - often forgotten but just as important - with planned variation when called for, and not just hope that you can get through it well enough to stick it. If your not there yet, you're walking in front of the recorders too early.

G.

In the hip hop community, recent artists tend to punch in a lot more now. I personally rather have 1 take like said, but hey, if their paying me $800 to track a demo for them, and they WANT to do punch in's, who am I to care? If the situation calls for it, and it's absolutely needed to be done, than I will consider it. I have one artist, that constantly uses punch in's, and I have yet allowed him to work on his own album until I mold him to be ready enough to be allowed to start working on a project. Of course, there's only x amount of time I can wait... I agree with the notion that artists, producers, engineers alike, need to be ready when they hit up a project, or demo, or anything that's worth working on. If it's a home project, knock yourself out. If it's my time & money, well that's a different story. If it's all $$, do what you want.

 

[Zed10R]

We are talking vocals here, more effected by mood, energy, enviroment and your health than any instrument. You can't touch them or see them. You can practice them and get training to be far more consistant, but it does not sound like you would ever record the Stones, areosmith or any other band that is highly produced if you are going to apply that standard to vocals.

F.S.

You are right. I wouldn't. But not for the reasons you think.

But...do you mean to tell me that mister Tyler can't sing a song EXACTLY the same way twice? To be honest, he's not my favorite singer by any stretch of the imagination...but he HAS been a mega pro superstar singer for decades, so my opinion of him would plummet if he couldn't do that. It would seem like...I dunno...like.....it's all been a big lie!!

 

[Freudian Slip]

You are right. I wouldn't. But not for the reasons you think.

But...do you mean to tell me that mister Tyler can't sing a song EXACTLY the same way twice? To be honest, he's not my favorite singer by any stretch of the imagination...but he HAS been a mega pro superstar singer for decades, so my opinion of him would plummet if he couldn't do that. It would seem like...I dunno...like.....it's all been a big lie!!

No I mean to say that a someone in the room may say I like this take better, it has more energy and it may not even be the best technical performance.
Or they may say lets try that again and see what we get and then decide which take is better based on several factors like weather the singer is into the song and conveying the emotion that it deserves.

I'm a trained singer and there are plenty of days I won't even bother trying to lay down tracks because my energy level is low and I'm just not excited about it, or into it.

If I'm on the fence I may try and see if it's working good or I can get into it, if not I will just walk away for the day. I may technically be hitting all the notes with the right phrasing and all that but just not be getting the emotion across for what ever reason. I can do it the same every time I just may not be able to really get into it cause I'm in a whole other mood or what ever. I would not try to lay tracks for a love song when I'm pissed off to beat hell about something.


I'm sure there are days that the producer or singer calls it a day because it's just not there.

Then you have your bands that made it pretty big but the singer is just not very good. There are tons of those out there. I'd rather have the guy try a bunch of times than auto tune the whole song.

Just my opinion. And when you say a guy should be able to punch you're right. I just find it often shows on vocals in other ways than wether the timing and notation is right so I throw it in another catagory than intruments.


F.S.

PS I also play guitar and bass so I'm not saying that there isn't tons of talent involved there. Mood can effect that too, just not to the extent of singing.

 

[DAS19]

Many times (especially if I see the vocalist is struggling) is record two or three complete vocal passes and make a comp of that.

What he said.

 

[Zed10R]

No I mean to say that a someone in the room may say I like this take better, it has more energy and it may not even be the best technical performance.
Or they may say lets try that again and see what we get and then decide which take is better based on several factors like weather the singer is into the song and conveying the emotion that it deserves.

I'm a trained singer and there are plenty of days I won't even bother trying to lay down tracks because my energy level is low and I'm just not excited about it, or into it.

If I'm on the fence I may try and see if it's working good or I can get into it, if not I will just walk away for the day. I may technically be hitting all the notes with the right phrasing and all that but just not be getting the emotion across for what ever reason. I can do it the same every time I just may not be able to really get into it cause I'm in a whole other mood or what ever. I would not try to lay tracks for a love song when I'm pissed off to beat hell about something.


I'm sure there are days that the producer or singer calls it a day because it's just not there.

Then you have your bands that made it pretty big but the singer is just not very good. There are tons of those out there. I'd rather have the guy try a bunch of times than auto tune the whole song.

Just my opinion. And when you say a guy should be able to punch you're right. I just find it often shows on vocals in other ways than wether the timing and notation is right so I throw it in another catagory than intruments.


F.S.

PS I also play guitar and bass so I'm not saying that there isn't tons of talent involved there. Mood can effect that too, just not to the extent of singing.

That is all very interesting. The thing that strikes me as......peculiar... is you seem to be saying that your singing abilities are at the mercy of your mood and how you are feeling at that particular moment. To me, that seems a lot like whining. I don't mean to offend you personally....really. But you wouldn't sing a love song if youre pissed off or had a bad day? Well.....how 'bout not being pissed off? If you had a bad day, how about getting over it? If you can't nail the song, how about doing it over and over untill you do? If you get frustrated, how about dealing with it?

I dunno man...I know that some days are more difficult than others to get a vocal right, but I'm not on board with a lot of what you said. If it's difficult to do, I'd rather work harder to get it done.

 

[Freudian Slip]

That is all very interesting. The thing that strikes me as......peculiar... is you seem to be saying that your singing abilities are at the mercy of your mood and how you are feeling at that particular moment. To me, that seems a lot like whining. I don't mean to offend you personally....really. But you wouldn't sing a love song if youre pissed off or had a bad day? Well.....how 'bout not being pissed off? If you had a bad day, how about getting over it? If you can't nail the song, how about doing it over and over untill you do? If you get frustrated, how about dealing with it?

I dunno man...I know that some days are more difficult than others to get a vocal right, but I'm not on board with a lot of what you said. If it's difficult to do, I'd rather work harder to get it done.

I see what you're saying. For me I have all the time in the world to record my own stuff so I can waite till I'm in the right mood if need be to get a better performance. I would not say my ability's to hit the notes or anything like that are at the whim of my mood just that the type of energy I want to put down for a particular song may be far harder to achive if I'm just flat not into it. When I go to someone elses studio I will hit every song best I can and that's just the way it is. It's my money I'm spending there. I will however re-sing something the next day if I didn't get the feeling or energy I wanted.

Anyway I see your point totaly. I just was trying to say that I wouldn't compare vocals to other instruments in the punch/no punch argument because of several things and I'm sure I overstated my case.

To each his own.

F.S.

 

[jmorris]

Many times (especially if I see the vocalist is struggling) is record two or three complete vocal passes and make a comp of that.

I second this, I do it all the time. The other thing, once a singer see's he/her are able to do this, a lot of the time they insist on it, 5/6 takes, then comp one good one together...doesnt hurt the bill at the end of the session either.

 

[jmorris]

Then again, there is that great stuff that happens by chance, never being able to repeat again when soemone with real tallent plays or signs. The thing we cant create with comps. Think about if McCartney sat and thought about all the adlibs in Hey Jude...would not be the same. Music is emotion, unless your an actor, you cant command it, It's just there.

 

[Zed10R]

Then again, there is that great stuff that happens by chance, never being able to repeat again when soemone with real tallent plays or signs. The thing we cant create with comps. Think about if McCartney sat and thought about all the adlibs in Hey Jude...would not be the same. Music is emotion, unless your an actor, you cant command it, It's just there.

I have nearly the opposite view. I know that some of the best moments are the result of mistakes and improvisations, but as a whole, I find that music can only be improved upon if it is worked on deliberately and methodically.

Say you have some spontanious idea that gives you that warm fuzzy feeling. We all get em. According to my method, that idea would be laid out with great care and every detail would be analyzed and evaluated untill I felt that the greatest potential has been achieved.

According to what I interpret as your method, that part is already as good as it will ever be the very moment it pops into your head or comes out of your mouth...is that right?

 

[Freudian Slip]

According to what I interpret as your method, that part is already as good as it will ever be the very moment it pops into your head or comes out of your mouth...is that right?

I don't know where you get that from If I wrote the song 10 years ago and go to record, ya it's pretty wrapped up what is going to get layed down and how I made those choices long ago. That does not mean I won't try all kinds of back ups to see what happens, but some songs I record before I even have the lyrics memorized and I'm holding the lyrics on a sheet to the side of the mic.

I will sing threw the song 3 or 4 times make sure I hit every part good at least once. I may mess with phrasing and see that happens. I may mess with pitch, who knows. I love recording songs the same day they are written just for that reason. You're never more into it for one, hell you just wrote it.
I too get cool things by mistake. I love seeing what happens with the extra voc tracks as far as backups are concerned and giving everything a shot.

That's one reason I personally subscribe to the multi sing threw, no punch way of doing things. It leaves you with alot of good left overs to mess with.


F.S.