Mixer Output

[Farview]

My overall concern now is that using some of the tips above I'm not approaching 0db on the meters like I think I should but I'll keep at it.

You have to be more specific. 0db doesn't mean anything. 0dbVU is where you should be on the meter on the mixer. 0dbFS is where you should be nowhere near on the zoom.

Analog and digital equipment use two different types of meters, which use two different db scales. On the analog side, 0dbVU is line level, which is right where your signal level is supposed to sit. On the digital side, 0dbFS is the absolute ceiling, where clipping occurs, and you shouldn't really be with 8-10 db of it.

This might be part of your confusion. If you are looking at the meters on the board and the meters on the recording device, they shouldn't be reading the same thing at all. A steady 0dbVU signal will probably read around -18dbFS on a digital peak meter.

 

[mtbcast]

Well, to put it more succinctly, I when speaking into the mic I'm not seeing very much on the meters. That's the 0db I'm not approaching. Output, per the meters, is pretty low and it takes significant (read: near max) to get my vocal channel give significant meter response. I have other mics and have swapped them in the past tshooting this. I'm going to spend some time doing this again and using different cables too as I have plenty of XLR cables.

 

[ecc83]

Ok, some numbers from my ZED10 FX.

Mic, SM57. Gain set at 3 o'clock. Chann' pot at "0". Main Mix pot "0". EQ flat but HPF engaged. Panned centre.

Mic almost touching lips and sub' conversational "Mary" (don't want wife thinking I am any more nuts than she does!) mixer meters show -30 and -20dB LEDs with brief peak on -16dB.

Meters on DAW (SAM 8SE) read -25dBFS on average (pk) bouncing to -20. This is an entirely satisfactory level of modulation for tracking. NB a cough sends the meters into the red. "Proper" singing, 150mm from the mic would give -20dBFS easily.

Shutting tfup the noise level in the room reads -78dBFS and replacing the mic with a 200Ohm resistor give around -80dBFS (almost any guitar amp in this room would spoil those figures..Except one! Spam forbids).

Note my zed feeds a 2496 soundcard and there is a level match, the card is much too sensitive for a "pro" levels mixer. If I wanted the mixer meters to agree with the DAW I would have to insert an attenuator in the feeds to the card, as it is I just ignore the mixer LEDs and use the DAW meters.

Dave.

 

[mtbcast]

Ok, some numbers from my ZED10 FX.

Mic, SM57. Gain set at 3 o'clock. Chann' pot at "0". Main Mix pot "0". EQ flat but HPF engaged. Panned centre.

Mic almost touching lips and sub' conversational "Mary" (don't want wife thinking I am any more nuts than she does!) mixer meters show -30 and -20dB LEDs with brief peak on -16dB.

That's is pretty much what I get at the meters using your settings. Mouth almost touched, "Test" into mic. Peaking about 16. At that setting, I can't even begin to touch a 0db peak. Belting pretty loud I might be hitting -9. The reason this concerned me is because everything I've read has said I should be seeing more on the meters. The "occasional 0db peak" as it were. Wrong?

 

[ecc83]

That's is pretty much what I get at the meters using your settings. Mouth almost touched, "Test" into mic. Peaking about 16. At that setting, I can't even begin to touch a 0db peak. Belting pretty loud I might be hitting -9. The reason this concerned me is because everything I've read has said I should be seeing more on the meters. The "occasional 0db peak" as it were. Wrong?

If your levels agree with mine there is nothing wrong with the mic/mixer chain. If my mixer were pushing out 0dB on the LEDs I would be hitting the 2496 at its maximum input voltage and get 0dBFS-ish in my DAW.....And you never want to be anywhere near that!

Dave.

 

[Bobbsy]

A few thoughts...

First, a conversational "Mary" or "Test" can be a very different animal depending on who's speaking, whether they're being quiet so as not to alert the wife they're playing at geekery, etc. etc. The above comparison can only be the most basic of guidelines.

Second, mention of the 2496 may or may not be confusing things. The 2496 uses a reference level of -10dBV; depending on which model of Zoom is in use, it might be that but there's a good chance it could be a more professional bit of kit with a +4dBu reference level, in which case the scales and headroom should more or less match between the A&H and the Zoom. Basically, this where you have to be a bit careful and understand the gear you're using. However, ignoring the interface for a second, speech levels at -30dB or even -16 dB on the Zed 10 metering are very low.

 

[Farview]

Well, to put it more succinctly, I when speaking into the mic I'm not seeing very much on the meters. That's the 0db I'm not approaching.

What I'm trying to get you to tell me is which meters? The ones on the mixer, or the ones on the zoom? They read two different things, so the numbers you are typing can be interpreted differently, depending on which meters you are talking about.

Mind you, the only meter that really means anything is the one on the recording device. The meters on those cheap Allen & Heath mixers are crap.

There is also a switch on the back of the thing which changes the output from line level to mic level. See how you have that set.

 

[Bobbsy]

What I'm trying to get you to tell me is which meters? The ones on the mixer, or the ones on the zoom? They read two different things, so the numbers you are typing can be interpreted differently, depending on which meters you are talking about.

Mind you, the only meter that really means anything is the one on the recording device. The meters on those cheap Allen & Heath mixers are crap.

There is also a switch on the back of the thing which changes the output from line level to mic level. See how you have that set.

I totally agree that you have to be very careful to know and understand the different scales you see on meters.

However, I agree a bit less on a couple of other points.

First, it's not really a case of only the meters on the recording device counting. It really is worth taking a moment and setting up the gain staging so you have a consistent level through the system as soon as you pass the mic pre amp. You don't want to run extra low in your mixer and crank it up in your recording device or vice versa.

Second, the A&H meters are actually pretty good and I'd probably trust them a bit more than I'd trust the Zoom.

But, as you say, all this is predicated on knowing the different meter scales in use at each stage of the chain.

 

[Farview]

We use those boards at work and the meters seem to have nothing to do with what is coming out of the output. If you actually do get to 0 dbVU, the rest of the system acts like you are overpowering it. (compared to the older mackie mixers we have) It does this set both line level and mic level.

The only way to see what is really going on is to see what the recorder reads.

 

[Bobbsy]

I've not had that experience with the Zed series mixers I've used. Pass a test signal through and the mixer reading corresponds (as closely as the scale allows) to the readings on my test gear. Either I've used a good batch or you have a bad batch.

 

[ecc83]

So, I inject 1kHz and with the LEDs indicating 0 I get 0dBu out (on a Wayne Kerr Radford noise meter ANM3)
For -9 I get -9dBu and for the +16 LED I get +16dBu. .....Is there something about the ballistics you don't like Jay?

Dave.

 

[mtbcast]

What I'm trying to get you to tell me is which meters? The ones on the mixer, or the ones on the zoom? They read two different things, so the numbers you are typing can be interpreted differently, depending on which meters you are talking about.

Mind you, the only meter that really means anything is the one on the recording device. The meters on those cheap Allen & Heath mixers are crap.

There is also a switch on the back of the thing which changes the output from line level to mic level. See how you have that set.

I'm speaking of the meters on the mixer when setting gain.

 

[mtbcast]

Based on what Dave has said regarding his channel settings and output meters on his ZED I assume I'm good there. This is the output concern I have to the DAW, seen in these tracks, and how they're metering in Garageband.

Here are the mixer settings per track:


Clearly track 5 is pushing a lot of volume and probably more than you'd want to. But most of these tracks are coming in very flat. I'm disappointed in the USB output (the weird thing is yesterday I suddenly got it to come in nicely. So I may have a midi driver issue there or something). So analog seems to be giving me the best results but I have to push the volume up to get there.

Maybe I'm concerned for nothing?

 

[Farview]

So, I inject 1kHz and with the LEDs indicating 0 I get 0dBu out (on a Wayne Kerr Radford noise meter ANM3)
For -9 I get -9dBu and for the +16 LED I get +16dBu. .....Is there something about the ballistics you don't like Jay?

Dave.

It probably is the ballistics. I like these better than the mackies because of the sweepable mid. (it helps fight feedback in the meeting rooms), but the metering, for some reason seems useless.

I've had this same experience in several hotels with both line level and mic level PA inputs.