Mixer Output

M

mtbcast

New member
Okay, this is going to be uber-newbie but I'm puzzled and need some input (or technically, output :p). I have a ZED10FX w/USB Allen & Heath mixer. I generally record voice through it and into a Zoom recorder. Since I first got it I've been concerned about the low output volume I get from it via USB and analog. When I speak into the mic channel, I have to seriously belt to get the meters to get to any significant levels. If I use the standard of "turning up the gain until I just get into the yellow" I have to have gain maxed to even remotely get there. And I'd virtually have to scream to clip or distort. I'm using a Sennheiser E385 straight into the channel. Nothing fancy going on. It's just never really output like I thought it should and that seems consistent at the meters and out USB and out the main outputs. Going into my recorder I can just up the gain input there and normalize in post. So recording isn't a big problem but if I want to do anything live these output levels aren't cutting it. I keep telling myself, "A mixer is not an amp." So maybe I have unrealistic expectations? Still I'd expect to see more on the meters. Clearly I'm not a professional sound engineer but I've followed everything I can read and view and am just afraid I have an mixer issue.
 
Well, I can't find anything in the manual about setting levels so I won't just say "rtfm". But just getting "into the yellow" isn't any kind of standard. More typical would be to set the gain so that the meter reads around 0dBVU with the source in its "normal-to-loud" range. You certainly don't want to get close to clipping or distortion.

By the way, you are using an XLR-XLR cable for the mic, not an XLR-1/4", right?
 
bouldersoundguy said:
Well, I can't find anything in the manual about setting levels so I won't just say "rtfm". But just getting "into the yellow" isn't any kind of standard. More typical would be to set the gain so that the meter reads around 0dBVU with the source in its "normal-to-loud" range. You certainly don't want to get close to clipping or distortion.

By the way, you are using an XLR-XLR cable for the mic, not an XLR-1/4", right?
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XLR-XLR. And I understand that is a general idea re: into the yellow. I don't don't get anywhere near 0db. Now I've been playing around today and found this. If I depress the Listen button on that channel, it drastically effects the output the meter sees. I find that odd. Per the manual:
Switches the channel signal to the headphones or monitor output circuit for checking the channel signal. Takes the signal after the EQ but before the Level control (so you can check the signal before adding it to Mix or Record)
So that's listening to the channel EQ'd but pre-Level. Why would this impact the meters? I can see where it might impact what you hear because perhaps your Phones main volume is down or playback or something. But if I turn off "Listen" I here everything much louder in the phones and the meters come alive. So I'm missing something basic, I assume.
FWIW, it doesn't appear to effect what going out Main, however. I still get low output there.
 
mtbcast said:
XLR-XLR. And I understand that is a general idea re: into the yellow. I don't don't get anywhere near 0db.
Click to expand...

"Yellow" has no consistent meaning. Which 0dB do you mean? You definitely want to get to 0dBVU, and that will most likely translate to around -18dBFS. You definitely do not want to get near 0dBFS.

It looks like "Listen" is what most boards call "PFL" or pre-fader level (or pre-fader listen). That's normally what you use to set gain. Press the Listen button, make a loudish sound in the mic and set the gain so the loudish sound makes the meter bounce around 0dBVU.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
"Yellow" has no consistent meaning. Which 0dB do you mean? You definitely want to get to 0dBVU, and that will most likely translate to around -18dBFS. You definitely do not want to get near 0dBFS.

It looks like "Listen" is what most boards call "PFL" or pre-fader level (or pre-fader listen). That's normally what you use to set gain. Press the Listen button, make a loudish sound in the mic and set the gain so the loudish sound makes the meter bounce around 0dBVU.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's not possible with this mixer without me being right against the mic and gain full on. The only way I get to around 0 is with PFL off and then I can throttle gain back some to say around 3pm-ish.
 
After some more playing around, I'm finding my overall output seems to be better using the Monitor bus. I think that's because I have a specific output level control for that. Also, I've been using Garaband Band to record into and suddenly it just started taking better input and I don't know what. It's strange as it's also rejected my USB input. So I need to do some more monitoring analog, away from the computer to get some better readings. FWIW, my Zoom always gets lower output from the mixer so I know it's not just the computer. I may end up switching to the monitor bus and recording there.
 
Just to be sure we are on the same page:

Main mix level set at zero

Channel level set at zero

Do you still have to have the gain at the top of the channel strip all the way up to get level?
 
Farview said:
Just to be sure we are on the same page:

Main mix level set at zero

Channel level set at zero

Do you still have to have the gain at the top of the channel strip all the way up to get level?
Click to expand...

Should I have PFL of at that point? It's effecting what I send to the meters.
 
PFL stands for Pre Fade Listen. It gives you the channel strip level , just before the level control at the bottom. You generally use that to set the input gain.

Without the PFL on, the meter should be reading the output of the mixer. With the PFL on, the meter is reading the channel strip you have soloed.
 
PFL allows you to check the level of signal coming in and being affected by the gain. It has no impact on the channel or output faders. It effects the meters, but nothing else. Once you've set your gain, turn PFL off so that meters resume their normal function
 
Farview said:
PFL stands for Pre Fade Listen. It gives you the channel strip level , just before the level control at the bottom. You generally use that to set the input gain.

Without the PFL on, the meter should be reading the output of the mixer. With the PFL on, the meter is reading the channel strip you have soloed.
Click to expand...

gecko zzed said:
PFL allows you to check the level of signal coming in and being affected by the gain. It has no impact on the channel or output faders. It effects the meters, but nothing else. Once you've set your gain, turn PFL off so that meters resume their normal function
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Thanks, Guys! Okay here's the thing though.

If I set gain with PFL on Gain has to be almost all the way up before I even get closed to 0. And when it's all the way up and I turn PFL off, then the output is really high and I do hit the yellow pretty good. But that leaves my Gain practically pegged (all the way around) and I get a lot of noise that way. It really just seems like my Gain has little effect until I'm at at least 3pm on the dial and really only gets to working levels (metered range per setup instructions I've read) when just backed off max. It just seems like I have very little room.

It's hard to troubleshoot this in text but I appreciate everyone's patience and advice, BTW. I may have to locate a local SME to get some advice about this mixer in the long run. That or maybe I'll do some video and post it if you guys want to have a look.
 
The gain with a mic input could well be at 3pm, the gain control has to control all kinds of inputs I think on this mixer the gain is also used on the line input which is why it is low to start with.

If you are getting low gain from the mic, all I can think of is that you are plugging the mic into the line input (jack) and not the XLR (mic) inputs, there could be a faulty mic lead with one of the cables broken or disconnected inside or even incorrectly wired, or the mic is faulty.

Looking back at some of the questions about Pre fade listen etc, can I suggest you take some time out and read the manual or if you have read it again slower, this is not a criticism but everyone has to learn new gear operation.

Alan.
 
It's not unusual for the gain to be at 3 o'clock or so--that's where I'm at for our mics whilst recording live through a desk while PFL'ed. PFL is for setting gain levels on the track. Some cheaper mixers are really dodgy while you are trying to set gain--you go a little over their sweet spot, and they go crazy loud, and then you back off, and they drop off sharply. It's okay to "hit the yellow"--you just want it in there, from about zero to the yellow at peaks. I think you're having issues with your understanding of signal levels--it is confusing, the differences between dB and dBU and dBFS, but it's important to understand the differences between these measurements, real important.
 
Something's not working in a standard way with that Listen mode. I would set the gain without using Listen.

Put the one channel volume and the main volume knobs both at their 0 marks. Set the gain knob with something in the loud range of what will be happening so that the level approaches the 0 mark on the meter. Do this one channel at a time, setting all the other channels to -∞. Keep your level fairly conservative, probably barely touching 0 on the meter.
 
I was about to post exactly what boulder sound guy suggested...that's exactly the method I use when setting up my mixer for either recording or live work. When I have a LOT of channels, I tend to run each one slightly lower than suggested above so when they add up the master out isn't too high but, with your number of inputs, putting each channel to around the 0 mark on the A&H meter will be about right.

On an 835 (a nice mic btw...sounds warmer and more natural than a 58 to me) the gain setting on the channel can be anything from about 12 o'clock up to full whack depending on the source material. Use the meter each time you set up rather than assuming it'll always be at 2 o'clock or whatever.
 
My reason for being conservative with levels in this case is because of pan law. A channel that solos at 0dBVU will go into the main bus 3dB lower when panned center. I suspect running a little low on the main bus will bring the signal into the DAW at about the right level.

Now that I think about it, I might be tempted to use the DAW's meters to set levels.
 
Certainly setting the DAW (or is it a Zoom recorder in this case?) is the next step in the gain staging chain. I guess it's worth noting for the OP that any digital device is probably on a different meter scale so, to match the 0dB(vu) point on the mixer, you then make this level hit the -18db(FS) scale on the DAW or digital recorder.

When just using the sound from a mic there has to be a bit of guesstimation but as long as you're close your recording should be fine. (I'm lucky...my mixer includes a tone generator so I set the meter there to the appropriate level then match the DAW to that and forget it. In the past, I have been known to make a CD or MP3 of tone at a known level, put that through a line input on a mixer, set the mixer to match that level, then match the DAW. but, for a small mixer that's probably overkill.
 
To the OP: do you have another mic you can check the mixer with? With my Mackie, I was typically setting the gain for my 835 no higher than 12 o'clock, the SM58 no higher than 2 o'clock. In reality, I would back it off from this because otherwise I ended up having the channel faders at less than 20% and the main output sliders very low as well.
 
All good advice, thanks again! I'm actually going to swap out the XLR and do some testing on other channels as well. What I'm trying to figure out now, now that I'm properly understanding my Listen level etc. is see if I'm dealing with a sub-par cable or if it's just my delivery which I doubt. Other inputs, however, tend to be fine. My guitar, for instance, if pushing levels just fine going straight into one of the guitar channels (3 in this case). But that channel is designed for that. My overall concern now is that using some of the tips above I'm not approaching 0db on the meters like I think I should but I'll keep at it.
 
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