The New Tone Thread

Here's a little clip of a song I've been working on, all the guitars are the SG > DSL through various speakers/mics, still a WIP as I still have to smooth out the lead guitar parts, but it's coming together a little better...The fx on the tail end of the lead rendered kinda wild, they weren't supposed to be that wet, so kinda overlook that...

Toan Thread Clip 4-8-2016

I do know the lead guitar was the SG > DSL > '65 > i5, & was pretty loud, but I'd have to dig up the amp settings....
 
Robus, its still comparitively heavy - just not quite what it was with a fully distorted bass on it too - I was using an old shit rectifier sim on it before.

Anyway - I've widened out the guitars (it has put some meat on the bones), finished the interlude and outro - haven't finsihed writing the solo yet so its a bit of a placeholder but I don't want to piss my neighbours off anymore with endless takes of me working on a solo.

View attachment 96675

Okay, JDOD, what I'm hearing is small cab syndrome. This is the danger of small amps and small cabs when trying to get massive sounds. What I hear is a cramped, boxy, nasal sound which are all the telltale signs of a small cab. You've got shoebox mids, you got some highs, what you don't have is the heavy chunk of cab space. This is usually fine for cleans or basic bluesy crunch, but you're going for guitar god tones. Tones made by big rigs moving big air. You can try a few things: 1) Back the mic off the cab a little and absorb some room sound. Then EQ the nasty bits out. This may work, it may sound like shit. 2) Double mic. Put one mic near the edge of the speaker, put one near the center, blend to taste. This can give you more balance between lows, mids, and highs. The edge mic for lows, the center mic for brightness, get em in phase and EQ each for a perfect blend. 3) Close mic and distant room mic blend. This might work well if the room sounds any good. Any one of these options can help negate the small cab problem, but you gotta fiddle with it.
 
I agree with that. Trying to make a 20 watt combo sound like a Plexi through a 1960 is going to be an exercise in frustration. Better to let the amp be what it is. I can tell that combo has a nice voice. Find a way to make that voice work in your music.
 
Here's a little clip of a song I've been working on, all the guitars are the SG > DSL through various speakers/mics, still a WIP as I still have to smooth out the lead guitar parts, but it's coming together a little better...The fx on the tail end of the lead rendered kinda wild, they weren't supposed to be that wet, so kinda overlook that...

Toan Thread Clip 4-8-2016

I do know the lead guitar was the SG > DSL > '65 > i5, & was pretty loud, but I'd have to dig up the amp settings....

Wow dude you are nailing the tones for that style. I had to check that I wasn't back in 1988....and I mean that in a good way. Very good. :)
 
Yeah there ya go man. See, that's a horizontal input. Meaning it has the wonky pots-mounted-to-board-mounted-to-chassis setup. No flying leads. But...it's a 50w so it doesn't have the reduced filtering that the 100w got for those years. So all in all, it should be good to go.

Cool, I've thought about the 50/100w thing, & I honestly think a 50w would be a lot better for me, & I could probably find one of the better amps, even if it is post-'85....

You have any experience with a Kerry King sig amp dude??? I know it's 100w, but it's also hot-rodded....From what I can find, it's similar in build to a JVM, but is a "modern" 2203....There's one for sale in the Marshall forum for $1400...I'm really not interested in it, just wondering what you think about 'em


Wow dude you are nailing the tones for that style. I had to check that I wasn't back in 1988....and I mean that in a good way. Very good. :)

Thanks man, I'm lovin' the SG & DSL right now, I'm learning how to control the feedback a little better. I can't wait to get the Chupa back to use with the SG...I know both those amps sound really similar in recordings, but I just personally like the Chupa much better...thanks again dude....
 
Here's a little clip of a song I've been working on, all the guitars are the SG > DSL through various speakers/mics, still a WIP as I still have to smooth out the lead guitar parts, but it's coming together a little better...The fx on the tail end of the lead rendered kinda wild, they weren't supposed to be that wet, so kinda overlook that...

Toan Thread Clip 4-8-2016

I do know the lead guitar was the SG > DSL > '65 > i5, & was pretty loud, but I'd have to dig up the amp settings....
Fucking hell, miner. That's great. Everything is right about that clip for the style.

If you haven't already take a photo of the front of your amp and the mic position.
Sounds like you had a desk fan blowing in your face while you were pulling a full 80s face melter there.

I think that's not just one the best produced clips you've done but one of the best produced clips I've heard on HR recently. There's a really cool bit at 48s with a double snare hit, a pause and loads of reverb bounce. Sounds great.
 
Okay, JDOD, what I'm hearing is small cab syndrome. This is the danger of small amps and small cabs when trying to get massive sounds. What I hear is a cramped, boxy, nasal sound which are all the telltale signs of a small cab. You've got shoebox mids, you got some highs, what you don't have is the heavy chunk of cab space. This is usually fine for cleans or basic bluesy crunch, but you're going for guitar god tones. Tones made by big rigs moving big air. You can try a few things: 1) Back the mic off the cab a little and absorb some room sound. Then EQ the nasty bits out. This may work, it may sound like shit. 2) Double mic. Put one mic near the edge of the speaker, put one near the center, blend to taste. This can give you more balance between lows, mids, and highs. The edge mic for lows, the center mic for brightness, get em in phase and EQ each for a perfect blend. 3) Close mic and distant room mic blend. This might work well if the room sounds any good. Any one of these options can help negate the small cab problem, but you gotta fiddle with it.
Basically, only owning one decent mic, one cab and 20w (I'm using about 15 of them in that clip) I'm pretty stuck with what I've got and I need to make the best of it somehow... I'll have to get friendly with my EQ
 
Thanks Jdude, I've already changed those amp settings...sorry man....but I can tell you about where the mic was, it was about an inch or so off the center of the speaker, where the cap meets the cone, about an inch off the grill cloth. That was the i5 mic on a G12-65 re-issue speaker, but I had some volume coming from it, the volume on the DSL was on about 5 or so, so it was moving a little air....Thanks again dude!!!

Man, I've been exactly where you are right now with your tone quest. Greg's right, & he won't ever steer you wrong with this shit, no matter what. Greg's had a big hand in helping me get the tones I do now, not long ago, I was exactly where you are right now, so I know how frustrating it can be...

I really don't have any suggestions to give you, without spending some $$$ man. A home-made ISO cab could help in your situation, but if you go that route, it's gotta be pretty big (have a big enough space inside to help kill the boxy-ness you're gonna have), & you'll have to build a "box in a box" to truly attenuate the noise...That's one option. But, DO NOT even consider the Randall 1x12 ISO cab, EVER...That is without a doubt the worst gear purchase I've ever made, total waste of $$$ IMHO...


Another option is a 2x12 or 4x12 if it's possible. You mentioned you live in an apartment, so this may not be an option man, but IMHO, if you want a big amp/cab sound on your recordings, you'll have to use a big amp/cab...Your 20w Blackstar should push a bigger cab more than enough to get a great tone...
 
Here's a little clip of a song I've been working on, all the guitars are the SG > DSL through various speakers/mics, still a WIP as I still have to smooth out the lead guitar parts, but it's coming together a little better...The fx on the tail end of the lead rendered kinda wild, they weren't supposed to be that wet, so kinda overlook that...

Toan Thread Clip 4-8-2016

I do know the lead guitar was the SG > DSL > '65 > i5, & was pretty loud, but I'd have to dig up the amp settings....


sweet :D great playing and tones :)


A home-made ISO cab could help in your situation, but if you go that route, it's gotta be pretty big (have a big enough space inside to help kill the boxy-ness you're gonna have), & you'll have to build a "box in a box" to truly attenuate the noise...That's one option. But,DO NOT even consider the Randall 1x12 ISO cab, EVER...That is without a doubt the worst gear purchase I've ever made, total waste of $$$ IMHO...


im halfway through building one,to say its a ballache is an understatement,ive been threatening to make one for ages,spent many long hours listening to all manner of clips of anything i could lay my ears on .. the silent sister seemed the best of the bunch (commercial and home made boxes)

so i gotta ask,can you go into more detail about why you hate it ?
 
sweet :D great playing and tones :)
Thanks for the compliment dude...


im halfway through building one,to say its a ballache is an understatement,ive been threatening to make one for ages,spent many long hours listening to all manner of clips of anything i could lay my ears on .. the silent sister seemed the best of the bunch (commercial and home made boxes)

so i gotta ask,can you go into more detail about why you hate it ?

On the Randall ISO cab, I just could not get the boxy-ness out of the sound the mic captured, no matter what I did. Different speakers, different mics, post-eq in the daw, nothing I did would get "that" sound out of it. Other people may have had better luck, but I just couldn't get it to sound natural. I thought maybe I should've gotten a Jet City, or the Rivera, but couldn't see taking the chance again. I'm using a 4x12 now, & I'm pretty happy with my tones. I have the luxury of being able to get pretty loud now too, although after 9 pm is a no-no, because I'd have the cops here. Any one of these commercial ISO's could work for someone else, but the Randall left a bad taste in my mouth....YMMV...


IMHO, my home-made ISO cab was way better, but, it was also way bigger & heavier. I can't remember the exact size of the one I built, but it was like 3' x 2' x 3'. I made a "box in a box", & sandwiched Roxul panels in between the boxes (covering the bottom of the outer box, then sitting the inner box in, & filling the sides). For the lid(s), the inner lid fit down inside the inner box itself & fit quite tight. The outer lid, I made Roxul panels covered with fabric, so all 4 sides of the inner box was covered by 2-3" of Roxul, & it had latches that pulled it down tight (with weatherstripping on the lid/top edges of the outer box). I also put small Roxul panels (covered in cloth to keep the fibers off my speaker/mics) behind the speaker baffle, & smaller, thinner panels where the mic(s) would actually go...

Here's a pic of the inner box (made out of good plywood & 2x4"'s) with the baffle, wingnuts & speaker wiring (looking at the side, the dimensions of this was 18"H x 18"W x 30"L, IIRC):


Here's a pic to give you an idea of how big the cab was:


And here's another pic where you can see it a little better (although the pic quality is shit):



The outer box was made from MDF. It originally started as a box to put my 1x12's in (one at a time), but I got tired of lugging a cab in/out for different speaker sounds, so I built the inner box. The bolts/wingnuts made it pretty easy/fast to swap speakers, & there was enough room to get the mic(s) almost a foot away from the speaker itself. IMHO, there was a big enough space inside, with enough Roxul, that it somehow sounded pretty decent....

The big fucker weighed a hell of a lot though. It took both me & my brother to put this thing in the back of a pickup truck. The truck was just a little higher than the porch/deck, but it was all we could both do to lift that thing up into the truck. Just guessing, that thing was close to 300 lbs, hell it may have been more because back then I was healthy/strong, & my brother is just a pure brute, but it kicked both our asses...

Something to keep in mind, sound is like water. Where water will escape, sound will too, so be sure to seal yours up really good with caulking on the seams. On your lid, be sure to get some weather-stripping/foam or something to make it seal up as best you can....Another thing is to buy some wheels/casters, so if you ever need to move it, you can just roll it around...

Sorry for the long post, but just wanted you to know the ISO I built was far different from the one I bought later on. My home-made ISO, not including a speaker, cost about $150 to build, IIRC. The Randall ISO was like $400 with a V30 in it...I finally sold the Randall just a week or two ago after trying to get rid of it for almost a year...

Not only was my behemoth ISO cab better sounding, it also killed the noise in the room a hell of a lot better than the Randall...

Good luck dude, keep us posted on how your build goes, & post some tones up.....
 
On the Randall ISO cab, I just could not get the boxy-ness out of the sound the mic captured,

/snip (i hate it when people over quote :D )


@minerman - thanks so much,excellent post i really do appreciate it :)

mine is similar to yours but 1100x600x680x40mm thick kitchen worktops (roughly 3 n a half foot x3x3) inner box,a guy on another forum that has air conditioning experience (quiet office ducting) gave me a design he made for me,so it uses clever porting on the inner box to do some noise cancellation ... i was gonna use 40mm thick dry wall insulation then cover with good quality carpet underlay,don't quote me but @43db "impact" reduction at 15mm ... (im thinking when that 50inch plasma tv comes crashing off the wall the neybs underneath hear 43db less :D )

now that i have the inner box loosely together i might be going 3 layers of quality felt underlay .. i do have rockwool but i hate that stuff so thats maybe for the space between the inner and outer box (with the dry wall stuff)... darn those fibers :(

man,i know what you mean about the weight,i underestimated mine, it IS a pig so while im testing its behind me,when its done it will be going in the celler then caulked/siliconed /glued




out of interest on the jobs list is testing vst`s through it,but with some form of clean power amp ... did you try that?


thanks again :)
 
Good post, miner. Cheers.

I've actually just taken out a tiny bit of mid and added a tiny bit of bass to the amp and it sounds a little better - a little dark at this volume but should brighten up as the amp gets louder. I'm waiting for my neighbours carer from yesterday who did the overnight shift last night (who got the thick end of me working on that interlude, really loud) to swtich with today's carer... then I'll crank it and have another go.

Greg, I know you're a Young Ones fan. Can't remember if I asked you if you've ever watched Bottom - its a later Mayall/Edmonson programme and its piss funny. The complete boxed set was in my local supermarket for 10 quid the other day and I just had to buy it!
 
Guys, made a slight tone tweak to try and kill that nasty mid and put a little more meat on the bones...

Only about a 20s clip, it doesn't even sound that different - just has more meat and slightly less harshness "in the mids" (In the mids? WTF am I talking about? I'm turning into a tone snob)

I think this is as close as I have got to what I am looking for.

View attachment Tone Test Amp Tweak.mp3
 
Guys, made a slight tone tweak to try and kill that nasty mid and put a little more meat on the bones...

Only about a 20s clip, it doesn't even sound that different - just has more meat and slightly less harshness "in the mids" (In the mids? WTF am I talking about? I'm turning into a tone snob)

I think this is as close as I have got to what I am looking for.

View attachment 96706

That is better. I just thought of something else you could try.....

Look in Reaper's ReaEQ. In the little dropdown preset menu, there is one called "11 band Marshall" or something like that. If I remember correctly, that preset can be pretty close to what you might need to tame some boxy cab mids. Try it and see what happens. Tweak to taste.
 
That is better. I just thought of something else you could try.....

Look in Reaper's ReaEQ. In the little dropdown preset menu, there is one called "11 band Marshall" or something like that. If I remember correctly, that preset can be pretty close to what you might need to tame some boxy cab mids. Try it and see what happens. Tweak to taste.
Cheers, will have a crack now. I only re-tracked one of the guitars as I didn't want to re-track both identically and I just can't get the motivation to re-string a guitar with a floyd fucking rose yet.

EDIT: That did make a slight improvement actually - its got a low bump in it which I didn't have and an extra couple of small scoops... funnily enough one of them was in a position that I already had a little scoop.
 
as close as I have got to what I am looking for.
isn't that a U2 song?


man ... too much freakin' gigging .... doubles on a lot of saturday/sundays .... gigs during the week .... I'm up now 'cause I have two gigs today so close together I have to go set up at one before I do the other .... Leave the house at noon ... will get home at 2am then up at 6:30 to go do two more tomorrow ..... then I come by here and 10 pages have gone by!

JDOD ..... latest toans sounded good ..... minerman .... that did indeed sound very good ..... ummmm hey everyone else!!

Gotta go .....
 
isn't that a U2 song?


man ... too much freakin' gigging .... doubles on a lot of saturday/sundays .... gigs during the week .... I'm up now 'cause I have two gigs today so close together I have to go set up at one before I do the other .... Leave the house at noon ... will get home at 2am then up at 6:30 to go do two more tomorrow ..... then I come by here and 10 pages have gone by!

JDOD ..... latest toans sounded good ..... minerman .... that did indeed sound very good ..... ummmm hey everyone else!!

Gotta go .....

Hey Boob! You gotta keep humpin it as long as you can. :D

I have a gig this week opening for another shitty classic 80s sleaze rock band. Actually, this band isn't as cheesy as the last one, but still pretty cheesy. How do I keep getting these gigs with shit 80s/90s bands? :cursing:
 
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