Victory Pete
Banned
You guys dont have to try to "Rain On Our Parade". Like Analog Recording, Rain is "Natural, Soothing and Real"!
VP
You guys dont have to try to "Rain On Our Parade". Like Analog Recording, Rain is "Natural, Soothing and Real"!
VP
T
Tim Gillett
Banned
OMG.
VP why not do yourself a favour. Buy that 1010, start recording with it and educate yourself out of your anti digital fantasies.
VP why not do yourself a favour. Buy that 1010, start recording with it and educate yourself out of your anti digital fantasies.
Victory Pete
Banned
I frequently "Do Myself Favors". I am getting involved with digital recording on my computer as a means to access the internet without having to go to my main studio which is in another building. I will be recording no "Harsh"cymbals here. Dont think for a minute I am being "Converted" (pun intended).
VP
T
Tim Gillett
Banned
I'm so relieved you wont be recording "harsh cymbals". I've been doing it for years and it's almost killed me. I cant stand the harsh sound. My clients are always complaining too about the harsh cymbals. The HR forum columns (the digital recording ones) are constantly jammed full of posts complaining about harsh cymbals. Just do a word search on "harsh cymbals" and the posts are never ending. What can we do? It seems this is a worldwide problem.
Is there any truth to the rumour that in the good old days they didnt have this problem? Something about analog tape recording I think it was... What's analog tape recording?
Tim
Is there any truth to the rumour that in the good old days they didnt have this problem? Something about analog tape recording I think it was... What's analog tape recording?
Tim
J
Jon Stoppable
Banned
I'm only happy when it rains.
Which is one of the best sounding rock recordings I've heard . . . started out on 20 year old samplers (of all things), ended up on tape, mastered on CD.
Which is one of the best sounding rock recordings I've heard . . . started out on 20 year old samplers (of all things), ended up on tape, mastered on CD.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I've had the same thing happen.
Tracked some band demos to tape....playback was good for everyone.
Dumped the tape tracks into the DAW just so I could edit out the crap between the cuts and organize the songs....there was no processing in the DAW, since they tracked live, as a band, with just lead vocals being overdubbed....
...and then when I played back the same tracks in the DAW, it was like, "It doesn't sound the same".
Played the tracks off the deck...."Yeah, that sounds better.".
There was no bias or preconceived expectations...there was no discussions about analog/digital....
...just people listening to the playback.
Now this wasn't set up as some perfect, double-blind A/B test....and yeah, when I play off the tape deck, it runs through my analog console and it is mixed/summed there, while playing off the DAW, the tracks are mixed/summed in the DAW...so yeah, there is some difference in the setup, but they all preferred the raw tape tracks....and so did I.
Everything sounds wider/bigger...you can feel the space. From within the DAW, it sounds a bit clinical/sterile and somewhat confined.
And this is something I hear every day when I work in my studio...which is why I still track to tape, edit in the DAW, but then mix back out through the console and again to tape before bringing the final mix back into the DAW as a stereo file.
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famous beagle
Well-known member
As much as I love working with tape and view digital as a necessary evil, I have to say that, in my opinion, this statement is pretty silly.
How can tape recording be any more "real" than digital recording? They're just two different ways in which sound waves are represented on a storage medium.
Was recording straight to vinyl more "real" than using magnetic tape?
Was recording to wax cylinders or wire more "real" than recording to vinyl?
Remember, there were also purists that rebelled against the idea of multi-track recording when that was invented because that's not a "real" recording.
If the sound is being reproduced at all and not happening from the source only, then it's all "memorex," and none of it's "real" if you want to get technical about it.
Who's to say that ... actually ... I'm almost positive that there will be another method of recording audio or video eventually that goes beyond what digital does now. And it will make digital seem more "real" by comparison. And people will say, "Remember when you could actually hold a hard disk in your hand with the music files on it? Those were the days! There wasn't any of this nano-quantum recording BS we have nowadays. Back then, if you wanted to make an edit, you actually grabbed the mouse and moved the pointer on your own! Imagine that"
And then there will be another method after that, and so on, and so on.
The point is that recording technology is always progressing. Analog tape just happens to be one of many stops on the way. It's one that I prefer out of the available options today. I certainly wouldn't prefer, nor could I afford, to record straight onto vinyl. Those lathe-cutting machines were huge, incredibly expensive, messy, and not portable at all. I mean, sure it'd be neat to try it once for the novelty of it, but I think you get my point. Our concept of "home recording" did not exist in those vinyl-only days.
Tape made things more portable, more affordable, more versatile (you could make edits), and changed the sound quality (I won't say "improved" because that's subjective I suppose). Coincidentally, those are all things that digital came and did to tape.
However, tape is affordable enough to me (though it does stretch my budget at times), and it's my preference.
But the idea of one medium being more "real" than another .... come on.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
While I am still tracking to tape for most sessions....I've also tracked direct to disk, including cymbals.
One of the important things IMHO with getting good sounding cymbal is to find the right cymbals.
I've gone through a bunch while searching for the right recording tones. I would buy some used ones off of eBay, try them, if I didn't like them, sell them back and buy a few more. I did that for a couple of years...and finally settled on some very thin cymbals (Zildjian Paper Thin) and some darker sounding ones (Zildjian K Dark & Custom Dark).
Same thing with the HH. I tried a few and ended up with some Zildjian A Mastersound 13" hats.
Often the cymbals that work great in a live setting, end up being way to bold/brash ...which ends up sometimes sounding harsh/annoying in the recordings. Of course, with the thin cymbals, you gotta watch out if the drummer is a real pounder. Luckily, the drummer I record with most often plays lighter, so the thin cymbals have survived.
I guess the other thing is the mics/position.
I see a lot of OH mics out, more in front of the kit...where the edge of the cymbals points more upward, toward the mics.
I like the OH mics behind and over the drummer's head...that way the leading edges of the cymbals where most of the energy comes off of are not aimed at the mics in any way.
Victory Pete
Banned
By "Real" I mean it is still an "Analog" of the original waveform, sure it has been transduced, but it never went through A/D and D/A converters and also sampled the waveform in finite intervals and then "Reassembled". Silly or not, that is my opinion.
VP
Victory Pete
Banned
While I am still tracking to tape for most sessions....I've also tracked direct to disk, including cymbals.
One of the important things IMHO with getting good sounding cymbal is to find the right cymbals.
I've gone through a bunch while searching for the right recording tones. I would buy some used ones off of eBay, try them, if I didn't like them, sell them back and buy a few more. I did that for a couple of years...and finally settled on some very thin cymbals (Zildjian Paper Thin) and some darker sounding ones (Zildjian K Dark & Custom Dark).
Same thing with the HH. I tried a few and ended up with some Zildjian A Mastersound 13" hats.
Often the cymbals that work great in a live setting, end up being way to bold/brash ...which ends up sometimes sounding harsh/annoying in the recordings. Of course, with the thin cymbals, you gotta watch out if the drummer is a real pounder. Luckily, the drummer I record with most often plays lighter, so the thin cymbals have survived.
I guess the other thing is the mics/position.
I see a lot of OH mics out, more in front of the kit...where the edge of the cymbals points more upward, toward the mics.
I like the OH mics behind and over the drummer's head...that way the leading edges of the cymbals where most of the energy comes off of are not aimed at the mics in any way.
These are what I have on my House Kit, Cymbals dont come much better than these for recording
Zildjian Armand Series Hi-Hat/Crash/Ride Cymbal Package at zZounds
VP
Blue Jinn
Rider of the ARPocalypse
Any comparison that isn't white lab coat/clipboard/blindfold/etc, is going to have some preconceived notion. Even something as simple as "Here is the sound on my vintage MCIPex and here it is on my new digiwhammer" is going to setup a contrast between "antique" and "shiny new thing" and introduce "imperfections" for Nomad to STERLIZE -- STERILIZE -- STERILIZE MUST STERILIZE!!!!! YOU ARE THE KIRK THE CREATOR!!!!
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
90% of the time when I have someone in my studio...they have NO CLUE about what I am doing with the signal path. To them...it's all just a bunch of gear...they see rack gear, they see computers, they see tape decks, they see a console...but have NO CLUE what the signal is actually going through...they are just listening to the monitors. So if they are hearing differences, I would accept that they do exist.
thewonders
Member
You are in error.
And you have made two errors... you failed to discover your first error.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
Try as we might, we might as well try.
A fly cannot bird but a bird can fly.
It's happening again. Analog vs digital. A little politer, a little subtler, but unmistakably so.
I understand why some want an analog only discussion or why some would happilly do away with analog altogether {in my opinion, both extremist views, but one that both are entitled to}, but I think that the spectre of the bigger picture {ie, recording and it's illustrious history} will always loom large over this subject.
A fly cannot bird but a bird can fly.
It's happening again. Analog vs digital. A little politer, a little subtler, but unmistakably so.
I understand why some want an analog only discussion or why some would happilly do away with analog altogether {in my opinion, both extremist views, but one that both are entitled to}, but I think that the spectre of the bigger picture {ie, recording and it's illustrious history} will always loom large over this subject.
Blue Jinn
Rider of the ARPocalypse
You are in error.
And you have made two errors... you failed to discover your first error.
I can repair the analog unit. The digital unit cannot be repaired.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I don't really see it as an Analog VS Digital...as though it needs to be some sort of competition between the two formats...
...but I do clearly see it as TWO different formats (why much of the digital side always claims to be "like analog" only muddies up the water)....and I also see it as two formats that work better together than either can do individually.
Of course, there's always going to be the digital extremists who seem to really need to prove and feel that digital is everything analog ever was, but more....and then there's the analog-only die-hards who refuse to acknowledge a single benefit/improvement that digital brings to the table.
Both silly positions IMHO...though I do not begrudge anyone wanting to work solely in either format simply becuase that is what they prefer, noting of course that digital will never be 100% all-digital due to the analog front and back ends that are needed in order to make and reproduce audio.
J
Jon Stoppable
Banned
Well my analog friends, it seems this is the end for me, I am shortly to be banned for criticizing the admin's decision to allow spam on our otherwise beautiful and perfect BBS. I hope you've enjoyed our discussions as much as I have. Good day to you all.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Don't sell yourself so short....
J
Jon Stoppable
Banned
Well it is beautiful, isn't it? It doesn't matter if I'm right and you're wrong, or if you're right and I'm wrong, or if we're both right or wrong and too stupid to realize it. The discussion itself is beautiful; an art just like music. Or maybe it was.
I don't think Chater gets that. She and the faceless French are just in this for the money.
A
AtoDeficient
New member
It's almost like it can't ever be avoided. . . But anyway- -
New multi-track tape machines? - - I fear the days of robust and serious manufacturing have passed. (Along with healthy economies)
I'm always pleased when I see younger recordists showing an interest in tape, and I want to think that we who own and/or maintain the machines in circulation today continue to do so, because when they're gone, they're gone. . .
And really, the energy expelled in The Debate would be better used to educate the young in maintaining the machines, if you possess the knowledge and skill, or maybe promoting or supporting those who maintain analog machines professionally.
'Cause The Debate will rage on, and the digi-users will be constantly upgrading their gear, since THAT maunfacturing treadmill is alive and well, the path of upgrades and downloads, and version 2.0's. . .
I know very little, but I do know this- - - The global economy was much stronger when we built and used more hardware and less software. . . We built it with many human hands. We packaged it with more supplies. We shipped it in many more trucks, and boats, and trains. We moved it on many more forklifts. We sold it in many more stores. We employed many more people. People who aren't employed now. So I don't really know which sounds better, but I know that a hardware world sounds better to me.