Will Analog Multitracks ever be made again?

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Will Analog Multitracks ever be made again?


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there it is! i learned something useful from you!

I didn't know laserdisc used analog audio. I am interested in this concept of a new light-based analog medium. Film soundtracks use lights.

The signal was stored as a series of on-off pulses, but it wasn't digital - it was actually FM encoded, with pulse-width modulation of the... pulses. I don't know if the audio track was FM'd or baseband analogue, but supposedly the analogue tracks were a bit ropey - from what I've heard, the better ones used 16/44 digital audio stuffed into a channel of the audio tracks and older machines without the PCM decoder would output the raw digital data on the right channel or something.

As for laser turntables, I'm hoping the patents on that will expire soon and we'll have some affordable ones. I hate having to use a needle.

For multitracks, I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if someone starts making them eventually, but I don't imagine they'll be affordable for a moment.
 
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there it is! i learned something useful from you!

I didn't know laserdisc used analog audio. I am interested in this concept of a new light-based analog medium. Film soundtracks use lights.

I am a somewhat useful ayehole, at least I try to be.

Yes, nobody apparently liked laserdisc audio (honestly I wasn't into hifi the last time I saw a laserdisc, just blasting my guitar amp at lofi volumes), but it had to share the disc with a lot of video info, so even 30 years ago it wasn't optimized.

I don't think FM necessarily excludes a signal from accurate reproduction; it depends on the modulation frequency. FM radio cuts way too low for hifi, that is so they can squeeze more channels into their allocated bandwidth. It doesn't have to be so.

On a silver disc you have a land and a pit . . . on a CD-R dye layer, I don't know what is possible. Could be interesting though, especially with modern computer control of the required motors, laser, etc.

I saw somebody on a thread on diyAudio was thinking/working on this, but I didn't follow the external link. It was a year old thread or so, maybe something has happened.
 
I think this thread is asking the wrong question; it's not "will analog mults be made again", it's "how should one make a modern analog mult?" Because the technological advances in storage media have been profound in the last 30 years, and the whole point was not to require the magnitude of machine work required for tape.

Good point. Been a while but I think I may have posted in this thread. Clearly, modern audio electronics could be very compact and relatively low cost relative to older machines. No need for the expense, weight and space of transformers on the I/O. The question of shifting away from tape to other media is interesting and has occurred to me, as well. Not sure what might hold the most promise, but if we could avoid the machine work of tape machines, then something might be possible.

From my perspective, a small, compact, lightweight, portable analog system with straightforward operation, essentially zero latency, excellent analog audio performance and good longevity of media would be great! Doesn't have to be tape, per se.

Of course, such a machine would probably still end up with many of the process limitations that tape machines impose. I don't mind those limits, but I'm skeptical that a large fraction of folks doing audio recordings today would want to re-impose those limits on their recording process. The performance demands increase when less correction and editing options are available on the back end.

Cheers,

Otto
 
Interesting, I guess then you'd have flame wars about tape vs. optical vs. ?>???? within the analog community.

I'll define analog as an electrical means of storage of an entire electrical signal vs a time-slice of an electrical signal converted to a set of on-off pulses? And for whatever reason, that sounds different or seems to sound different* (*there is an ongoing thread about that....)

So for the sake of teh discussion, what media hasn't been tried yet, or wasn't sufficiently cost effective in the last 50 years to make a recorder? So let me propose something optical with a disk or disks. (I keep seeing the optigan) Essentially using some kind of laser to write a signal? Maybe something that can be written to and then erased with uV light, like an EEPROM? And then a laser to playback? I don't fully understand the science of how a tape deck works, but somehow electrical information gets to a piece of metal which then excites particles of rust to line up a certain way to store that electrical information? Why couldn't a laser (or LED) do the same thing on some other kind of media?

But, what would be the R&D and why would you want to devise this to compete with tape and $1.99 Pc sound cards? Although laser technology has advanced a great deal in the last 20-30 years, a long way from groovy light shows (Won't Get Fooled Again anyone?) to split second speed detectors and sophisticated eye surgery

Market load a disk as easy as a CD (or optical thingamajig) much easier then spooling tape, head degaussing etc etc, 48 tracks on a piece of painted glass with all that analog magic?
 
48 tracks on a CD, hmmm, not sure how you would do that. You'd need some sort of interleaving or 48 splits of your beam . . . but there are certainly more clever people in the world than me. Anyway, you probably can't get more analog information on the CD than you can have digital information, so the runtime would be pretty short in that case.
 
From the 30s to the 60s there was a recording technology which used transparent tape covered with gelatine. The recording head would scrape the stuff off in a similar manner to a film optical audio track.

This was the Philips-Miller system.
The Philips-Miller Film Recorder

IIRC the first experiments with stereo were done on this format. It's not exactly suitable for a multitrack format, particularly since you can't go back and record over something, but for those curious about exotic formats...

With optical disc media, the original speaking clock machines used glass discs, which is kind of fascinating. Even less suitable as a multitrack format, though...
SPEAKING CLOCK - GENERAL DESCRIPTION
 
Some fun stuff to think about... an analog multi-track recorder without the tape... hmmm. Moving heavy reels of tape with precision is a large part of the expense... hmmm.

What if the device was not about long-term storage? Imagine a cylinder coated with an oxide formulation (imagine exchangeable cylinders of different classic formulations you could pop in and out)... Multitrack record head, play head aligned in parallel with this spinning cylinder. Signal stored for a few milliseconds on this cylinder....

Maybe even re-cycle old head stacks to build these things....

Hmmm...
 
Some years ago on this forum we discussed a possible multitrack machine using a standard VHS cassette running at say 3.75ips. It would have been relatively cheap to make as a standard VHS deck could be used as the basis for it, with the rotary head drum absent and stationary multitrack heads instead.

As far as I know such a machine has never seen the light of day although there was a similar Akai machine using a non standard cassette a bit like a Beta videocassette.

Many on this forum swear by analog tape because of its warm distortions but that doesnt necessarily apply to other analog means such as optical or mechanical. It's the combination of magnetic tape and analog that gives you the (sometimes) pleasant distortion.

One of the problems with any "analog" system is that noise is also analog. We went to FM encoding of radio signals to reduce analog noise in AM radio.
Even back when analog tape was all there was, the weak link was the noise of analog tape recording system. The microphones and preamps of the day (even though they were totally analog too) had far less self-noise than the analog tape recording system which captured them. In the early days of digital recording, tape was the obvious recording medium as hard drives were still in a state of infancy. The noise levels came down and without Noise Reduction, simply because they were now encoding the tape in digits.

I read of home recording guys who have been using digital. When they try analog tape they often complain of the noise, as they are used to far less recorder noise. When told that when analog was king, professionals used Noise Reduction, with all its extra complications, they often ask, "why did it have to be so complicated?" The answer is that it had to be that complicated to get recorder noise levels down to acceptable levels, especially with multitracks where wider tracks made for increased machine and tape costs.

By its very nature, recording direct with analog, with no coding, is noisy. Magnetic tape just happens to be perhaps the quietest analog recording system developed, but it's still noisy compared to the program (the source) you are recording. In trying to fix this, we reach the law of diminishing returns.

I just read the thread from the guy wanting his 16 track Fostex tapes transferred to digital and the link to Sonicraft. Just look at the time and money that Sonicraft guy has invested in his company. And for what purpose? To make new recordings to analog tape. No, to achieve the best possible playback of legacy analog master tapes to digital, which is not necessarily an easy task and can require great skill.
The guy has all sorts of legacy multitrack format analog tape machines in often better than original condition. For him it's a job worth worth doing because people pay him to remaster legacy analog tapes to digital.

To me that's mostly the future of multitrack analog tape machines - in a facility like his, used solely for playback. The value is in the recordings themselves. Coming from that era, of course they were recorded onto multitrack analog tape.

Tim
 
I read of home recording guys who have been using digital. When they try analog tape they often complain of the noise, as they are used to far less recorder noise. When told that when analog was king, professionals used Noise Reduction, with all its extra complications, they often ask, "why did it have to be so complicated?" The answer is that it had to be that complicated to get recorder noise levels down to acceptable levels, especially with multitracks where wider tracks made for increased machine and tape costs.

It's interesting to me since I've been recording since I was a kid with a 4track back in the mid 80s. I've been digital since 94. BUT the noise never bothered me - I HATED noise reduction and never used it. I did what most people did who hated noise reduction - overwhelm the noise with signal and roll off a little high end.
 
It's interesting to me since I've been recording since I was a kid with a 4track back in the mid 80s. I've been digital since 94. BUT the noise never bothered me - I HATED noise reduction and never used it. I did what most people did who hated noise reduction - overwhelm the noise with signal and roll off a little high end.

You went for the trade off of added distortion and a rolled off high end. Obviously the noise did bother you. If the noise hadnt bothered you, you wouldnt have made those trade offs to reduce it.

Tim
 
You went for the trade off of added distortion and a rolled off high end. Obviously the noise did bother you. If the noise hadnt bothered you, you wouldnt have made those trade offs to reduce it.

Tim

I guess in you're right, but it wasn't a concious thing - never thought about it much, nor did I ever find myself cursing noise :-) I never considered trade-offs, as it's just 'what we did'. I can see how someone coming from digital would be bothered by it.
 
I guess in you're right, but it wasn't a concious thing - never thought about it much, nor did I ever find myself cursing noise :-) I never considered trade-offs, as it's just 'what we did'. I can see how someone coming from digital would be bothered by it.

I cut my teeth on analog in the mid-70's.. and whether or not I cursed the noise depended a lot on what I was recording... A full band? No Prob. BUT, a quiet passage, a piano fade.... that noise was the enemy for sure.
 
I cut my teeth on analog in the mid-70's.. and whether or not I cursed the noise depended a lot on what I was recording... A full band? No Prob. BUT, a quiet passage, a piano fade.... that noise was the enemy for sure.

Oh god yeah Jim! It was easy for me as I was primarily making noise, so it was easy to overcome the other noise. Now that I play a lot more piano, I would be bothered to no end.
 
I have been using DBX on all my Tascam machines for almost 20 years and love it. There is 108db signal to noise ratio. The hiss is totally absent except for the occasional faint "breathing" when there is a bass solo or similiar signal.

VP
 
Forever is a long time, longer than our measly lifespans. If some huge explosion were to occur and enough EMP were released this could fry all but the most protected chips in the world (submarines and fortified military bunkers might be safe) and we would have to rebuild the world. A multi-track recorder can be built from non digital controlled machines like foundries to cast the parts and machine shops to finish them, simple wire and magnets and the bits to make up the recording heads, motors and meters could be made like they were in the 50's. I believe it would be faster than rebuilding an infrastructure to produce computers and DAWs as the first parts to be remade would be very expensive and needed to get the world running again, not that music is not important too but there are a lot of computers running power plants and dams.
 
If some huge explosion that fried computers was to occur, then I think the least of anyone's concern would be building a multi-track recorder. Additionally, though a multi-track is not computer-controlled, there is still a bunch of electronics in there. To have to remanufacture chips would be a problem for all forms of recording.
 
I hope a recording doomsday happens. . . I might start getting gigs again.
 
I suppose the question would be does humankind lose all knowledge of electronics, or just the electronics? If we lost all knowledge then one would presume that affairs would occur in the same order. If we still had knowledge of electronics then it wouldn't take 20 years from the invention of the tube to the invention (in concept) of the transistor, and then another 20 years until we had a functional transistor, and then another 20 years until commercial transistors were commonplace. We'd build a few tubes because anybody with a metal and glass shop can do it, then use the capabilities of those tubes to get transistors as fast as possible.

Once that last step happened (which is a precondition for both digital audio and multitrack tape recorders), then it would only be a similar period of time from the first multitrack tape recorders until digital audio matched them in quality, which was less than 20 years. It would probably take less the second time around because we'd be working harder on digital audio because we'd already know its practical potential--not just audio, of course, we aren't that special--but the capabilities of producing ICs.

*msh says as he stuffs ICs onto PCBs . . .*
 
You could destroy all of computers in the world but to destroy all the knowledge about them you'd have to also destroy all the books in all the libraries of the world. That would be some explostion. If it destroyed the books it would probably have destroyed the people first.

Tim
 
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