grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
Analog multitracks are simply not that important !
Victory Pete
Banned
Hopefully my Tascams are protected from an "Electro-magnetic Pulse" by the Faraday Shield I have surrounding it.
VP
VP
Jim Rosebrook
It's All Good....
The TEAC 3340 from my teenage recording roots will be protected by the Farafacette Poster Shield that is stored in close proximity.
G
glenn taylor
New member
I recorded on Analog machines in the 60s 70s and 80's. The last 10 years I have been collecting them. Finally figured out they take me back to younger days. Whatever it must mean to me. Find myself getting a motel room in Nashville to pickup a MCI 2"16 track. Or driving down to Miami to pickup a 1" 8 track.
I just thought of something that might give you an answer. Most of the used machines I have seen except ones that have been rebuilt or refurbished have been selling for REALLY CHEAP PRICES. This last year I bought a Fostex E 16 in mint condition with the remote for $50. As long as the used market is giving them away and to re design and build a new machine would be very expensive I have heard it's not likely gonna happen. It would be cool. GT.
I just thought of something that might give you an answer. Most of the used machines I have seen except ones that have been rebuilt or refurbished have been selling for REALLY CHEAP PRICES. This last year I bought a Fostex E 16 in mint condition with the remote for $50. As long as the used market is giving them away and to re design and build a new machine would be very expensive I have heard it's not likely gonna happen. It would be cool. GT.
Blue Jinn
Rider of the ARPocalypse
There was a handful of thoughts in another thread, which belong here, so here they are:
miroslav:
lonewhitefly:
me:
miroslav:
lonewhitefly:
me:
jpmorris
Tape Wolf
Stephens made his own decks when 3M stopped supplying him the transports, and you have also had weird stuff like the Cadey machines, which were available in kit form.
I did at one point come across a PDF document originally written in the 1940s, which describes how to build a wire or reel-to-reel machine, including the heads.
I'd be surprised if R2Rs went into mass production again (notwithstanding some weird legislation banning digital recording or tech getting knocked back to the 50s) but when you have people making their own valves and fusion reactors at home, someone suddenly going 'I want to make a 16-track recorder' is far from impossible.
I did at one point come across a PDF document originally written in the 1940s, which describes how to build a wire or reel-to-reel machine, including the heads.
I'd be surprised if R2Rs went into mass production again (notwithstanding some weird legislation banning digital recording or tech getting knocked back to the 50s) but when you have people making their own valves and fusion reactors at home, someone suddenly going 'I want to make a 16-track recorder' is far from impossible.
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
Look at what a comeback open-reel VTR's have made (sarcasm mine) and we have a pretty good idea of the potential for a comeback of the audio variant. Not apples-to-apples I realize...and I think the video sector is more obscure and the machines more complex than open-reel audio machines, but I don't think the comparison is too obtuse to throw it out here fwiw...
Oh, and my Ampex MM-1000 as outfitted would cost over $190,000 in today's dollars.
My MCI console is fortunately a relative bargain at just under $130,000.
Oh, and my Ampex MM-1000 as outfitted would cost over $190,000 in today's dollars.
My MCI console is fortunately a relative bargain at just under $130,000.
Blue Jinn
Rider of the ARPocalypse
I'm not sure anyone has ever argued 3/4" looks better than DVR in some PCM vs DVD flame war! Also, analog tape has been around since the 1940s. Open reel videotape, vs other video formats, is more like comparing DAT and DASH to hard disk, a method means to the same end that got supplanted by (probably) better technology.
Also, it's interesting to note the inflation adjusted price of classic analog gear. However, that means that back then it was even more of a niche market then it is now, when your Ampex basically was 5x the cost of an average house. (at least in these parts...)
High end multitracks are technically still being made if you count ATR remanufacture. It is my understanding they use a mix of new and restored or nos parts. Kinda like scootrs in Vietnam, will make you a custom Lambretta L150. And inflation doesn't really tell the whole picture. Somehow there is a market for $6000 scooters, which would have been about $2700 in 1984. I'm not sure how many of my mod friends could have afforded that back then....
But, you can buy a brand new Mellotron, for roughly the same price they were in the early 70s, adjusted for inflation. Hand made too. I can't afford an ATR, nor could I have afforded the same machine in 1974. I really couldn't have afforded a MSR-16 either in 1988. But the cost of making things has only gone down. I'm certain there will be a spare parts after market.
Also, it's interesting to note the inflation adjusted price of classic analog gear. However, that means that back then it was even more of a niche market then it is now, when your Ampex basically was 5x the cost of an average house. (at least in these parts...)
High end multitracks are technically still being made if you count ATR remanufacture. It is my understanding they use a mix of new and restored or nos parts. Kinda like scootrs in Vietnam, will make you a custom Lambretta L150. And inflation doesn't really tell the whole picture. Somehow there is a market for $6000 scooters, which would have been about $2700 in 1984. I'm not sure how many of my mod friends could have afforded that back then....
But, you can buy a brand new Mellotron, for roughly the same price they were in the early 70s, adjusted for inflation. Hand made too. I can't afford an ATR, nor could I have afforded the same machine in 1974. I really couldn't have afforded a MSR-16 either in 1988. But the cost of making things has only gone down. I'm certain there will be a spare parts after market.
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
Open reel video formats have been around since the mid 50's. That was a noodle-bender when I was made aware of that.
I simply see that the driver of the manufacturing market is the music production market, not the artists (except for those that are both). The "market" will thirst for whatever sells; whatever can make more with less time/money/effort. The focus is, by-in-large (no pun intended), so NOT the process or the experience of the process. If the market were to swing back toward those elements as well as the *sound* (my opinion...I SO don't want another absurd time-wasting analog vs. digital debate to start) then maybe there would be a chance for the analog tape recorder to resurface in new bonafide production, but the reality is that money doesn't care about the process, the experience, or the sound, unless those elements make more money. Analog tape machines don't shuttle or edit like a digital workstation, and they cost a lot more to manufacture. Time is money. Money is money. I've had conversations with several studio owners this last year who all basically said the same thing: "I love tape...that's why I still have this [insert dinosauric machine here], but nobody wants to track to it because they think its inferior." Thank you "market". And those were owners of smaller independent studios...busy studios, but the kind that can cater to the up-and-coming and niche markets...the kind that could market analog tape production and potentially draw customers, but that was STILL their sentiment. In my home studio it is to be forever mandatory that I have the console setup so I can A/B playback of digital material both straight from the digital playback medium as well as looped through a well-setup halftrack with the push of a switch so people can hear the difference. I don't care if they are musicians or not. Everybody that comes to my house and sees my "studio" are curious about the old tape machines in there, again, whether they are musicians or not. If they like music I will tell them that tape is better; that the move to digital wasn't driven by a "better" sound. And if I can snare them to hear some material A/B'ed through the halftrack I do. Most are shocked. Alas, in my little pocket I lack the momentum to move the giant Death Star Imperial "MARKET". So I will be content to know the truth about the two main recording mediums presently in existence, and to know how to operate and maintain the better of the two. You and me and all us analog nuts aren't remotely enough to threaten the status of the Death Star, and that's okay. I do agree that the analog audio tape market won't completely die away. Neither has quad video.
My 2p.
BTW, I like working with digital too.
I simply see that the driver of the manufacturing market is the music production market, not the artists (except for those that are both). The "market" will thirst for whatever sells; whatever can make more with less time/money/effort. The focus is, by-in-large (no pun intended), so NOT the process or the experience of the process. If the market were to swing back toward those elements as well as the *sound* (my opinion...I SO don't want another absurd time-wasting analog vs. digital debate to start) then maybe there would be a chance for the analog tape recorder to resurface in new bonafide production, but the reality is that money doesn't care about the process, the experience, or the sound, unless those elements make more money. Analog tape machines don't shuttle or edit like a digital workstation, and they cost a lot more to manufacture. Time is money. Money is money. I've had conversations with several studio owners this last year who all basically said the same thing: "I love tape...that's why I still have this [insert dinosauric machine here], but nobody wants to track to it because they think its inferior." Thank you "market". And those were owners of smaller independent studios...busy studios, but the kind that can cater to the up-and-coming and niche markets...the kind that could market analog tape production and potentially draw customers, but that was STILL their sentiment. In my home studio it is to be forever mandatory that I have the console setup so I can A/B playback of digital material both straight from the digital playback medium as well as looped through a well-setup halftrack with the push of a switch so people can hear the difference. I don't care if they are musicians or not. Everybody that comes to my house and sees my "studio" are curious about the old tape machines in there, again, whether they are musicians or not. If they like music I will tell them that tape is better; that the move to digital wasn't driven by a "better" sound. And if I can snare them to hear some material A/B'ed through the halftrack I do. Most are shocked. Alas, in my little pocket I lack the momentum to move the giant Death Star Imperial "MARKET". So I will be content to know the truth about the two main recording mediums presently in existence, and to know how to operate and maintain the better of the two. You and me and all us analog nuts aren't remotely enough to threaten the status of the Death Star, and that's okay. I do agree that the analog audio tape market won't completely die away. Neither has quad video.
My 2p.
BTW, I like working with digital too.
Blue Jinn
Rider of the ARPocalypse
Someone could write a thesis on this subject, and for my part, this is probably just rambling.... But it's still interesting.
Who (no pun intended) got to record leisurely in big expensive studios on big expensive machines, those Studer, Ampex and MCI six figure machines in the 1970s? Not you or me, and not the Sex Pistols of the world either. Until after 1977. Supposedly that was a rebellion against the stodgy arena rockers of the 1970s, and the self indulgent spend a year in the studio to make Bohemian Rhapsody etc. (Ignoring the subjectivity of whether or not a lot of that music deserved all that studio time because it is so damn good....) and then that rebellion was marketed and packaged and those guys got their shot at recording on those big expensive machines. ("turning rebellion into money....")
Then along came Tascam and allowed a lot of other people including all those who took that rebellion serious to record on 1/2" 16 track in an office park setting for a lot less money. Then came computers, and I'm going to include the Atari/Amiga/MAC and PC in that category, and then cheap soundcards. And then everyone w/ a mouth and a microphone was making cd's. Maybe the variety and the access is a good thing, I don't know. I remember lamenting the fact that none of my band mates nor I could afford to rent a black and white video recorder to record our band. But I've found a lot of the music I really like these days was recorded to tape, which as you point out isn't just the sound of tape, but the process is more limiting and ironically more liberating, because you can capture more of a 'performance' and some kind of mojo that comes along with that.
The marketing geniuses want fast easy and cheap. But trends have a way of taking off on their own.
Who (no pun intended) got to record leisurely in big expensive studios on big expensive machines, those Studer, Ampex and MCI six figure machines in the 1970s? Not you or me, and not the Sex Pistols of the world either. Until after 1977. Supposedly that was a rebellion against the stodgy arena rockers of the 1970s, and the self indulgent spend a year in the studio to make Bohemian Rhapsody etc. (Ignoring the subjectivity of whether or not a lot of that music deserved all that studio time because it is so damn good....) and then that rebellion was marketed and packaged and those guys got their shot at recording on those big expensive machines. ("turning rebellion into money....")
Then along came Tascam and allowed a lot of other people including all those who took that rebellion serious to record on 1/2" 16 track in an office park setting for a lot less money. Then came computers, and I'm going to include the Atari/Amiga/MAC and PC in that category, and then cheap soundcards. And then everyone w/ a mouth and a microphone was making cd's. Maybe the variety and the access is a good thing, I don't know. I remember lamenting the fact that none of my band mates nor I could afford to rent a black and white video recorder to record our band. But I've found a lot of the music I really like these days was recorded to tape, which as you point out isn't just the sound of tape, but the process is more limiting and ironically more liberating, because you can capture more of a 'performance' and some kind of mojo that comes along with that.
The marketing geniuses want fast easy and cheap. But trends have a way of taking off on their own.
T
Tim Gillett
Banned
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
The tape sounds better to their ears.
J
Jon Stoppable
Banned
After that nice bit of expectation bias you conditioned them with 
Victory Pete
Banned
Clients in my studio, especially the younger "Ithing" generation, are surprised also at the way they sound on Analog, they really like it!
VP
VP
T
The Ghost of FM
Banned
After that nice bit of expectation bias you conditioned them with
Sweetbeats has gone through hell and high water to put that little studio of his together. Do you begrudge him expressing some healthy enthusiasm to his house guest who come and see and hear his set up?
Don't some of your sales come from sales pitches and word of mouth? Or do you have Ella Fitzgerald on call to sing into a Neumann and one of your microphones while you work the ABX comparator switch in order to make a sale?
Cheers!
J
Jon Stoppable
Banned
No that's Mr. Joly, I don't do audio samples, comparisons, "shootouts", etc. You want my mic, you buy it; you don't want it, you don't buy it. Pretty simple. The main selling point from my POV is form factor and efficiency.
Here is my theory:
As the quality of a tape recorder increases, its ability to render output = input increases.
As the quality of a digital recorder increases, its ability to render output = input increases.
Therefore, as the level of quality of each system increases, they become less distinguishable. So if the comparison of a given tape and digital system is readily distinguishable, then the quality of either or both systems under test is suspect.
Or perhaps that either or both of the systems are being purposely operated outside of their linear range . . .
Here is my theory:
As the quality of a tape recorder increases, its ability to render output = input increases.
As the quality of a digital recorder increases, its ability to render output = input increases.
Therefore, as the level of quality of each system increases, they become less distinguishable. So if the comparison of a given tape and digital system is readily distinguishable, then the quality of either or both systems under test is suspect.
Or perhaps that either or both of the systems are being purposely operated outside of their linear range . . .
T
The Ghost of FM
Banned
Sorry, but you've completely missed the spirit and human factor point I was making in regard to your sterile response to Sweetbeats' post.
Lighten up, dude.
Cheers!
thewonders
Member
I saw this poll and decided to stop lurking and vote, and I voted yes. But I don't believe that we'll see the same kind of development/manufacturing that existed in the 60s/70s. I think that what we will see is small builder/rebuilders who cater to the growing niche market that tape recording has evolved into. As the "niche" continues to grow, and available/repairable machines become more scarce, there will be more incentive to offer new multi-tracks.
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
After that nice bit of expectation bias you conditioned them with
Exactly. And the tape delivers. Isn't that great when you steer an expectation and the results exceed that expectation?
T
Tim Gillett
Banned
Why "steer an expectation" at all? It only throws into question the validity of the result, not to mention your own confidence in your product.
Good products sell themselves. Only the insecure person feels the need to manipulate peoples' responses.