Why buy an expensive headphone? Please read it all to get my point...

Their response is not as flat as it should be for mixing, but checking reverb tails, edit points, etc, they work good. PLus, they just sound nice. $30USD.

2) It has an impressive bass response for such a small can. The .

Yes, this is the "not as flat" part I was talking about. They do make for good casual listening headphones, but you can learn them and they will work for mixing. They are good for tracking. Durable. I used to step on the cord and pull them off my head all the time. Never broke!! Eventually, after about 8 years, the cushions fell apart and I tossed them. $25 was a good investment.

Glad you like them. For the money, they are the best.
 
It is good if you learn the headphones you have, a lot, because you want your music to sound great in most cans and speakers. You can also try to mix in phases where you gradually open up the frequency spectrum and once the mids are rich, then you work on balancing the various ranges of the lows and the various ranges of the highs separately. Most cans and speakers are quite bad, but if you train your ears a lot you can learn to discount that when you evaluate what you have in the mix. Learn the technique well so that you know how to best work with the frequencies. Listen to the sound objectively and practice putting the most precise terms on it, just like describing what a particular red wine is like. Describing sound and music really well is key, no matter what headphones and speakers you use. It is more important than the speakers and the headphones, so do not over estimate their impact... Obviously you are going to need both cans/speakers that have a limited frequency spectrum, and ones that provide you good low end and high end insight too. If you learn to mix against for instance notebook speakers with a very limited high and low frequency spectrum, you kind of learn the art of creating bright mixes. From there the step to creating great sounding mixes on the full frequency range will be a little smaller and easier. If you open it up with cans that lack precision, then that can take some time to learn.
you
When you learn the art of describing sound, an advice is not to immediately attach good or bad labels to it all. Balanced might be good and it might be bad. The question to ask yourself is this: How do I like this, what is really what I think and feel about this sound? Maybe some of the music I love out there and would like my mixes to sound similar to, maybe that's not at all the kind of sound I've dialed in here. What IS that sound like, what does it contain? Have I really put the right labels on that sound? Do I need to listen to it using a number of different cans to see how that impacts the labels I've put on those mixes?

I find it's mostly this kind of stuff. Balancing is balancing, you can hear when you have too much or too little lows, mids or highs, but knowing what frequency composition you truly want to have and how to achieve precisely that using any cans, that's what you should be looking into. It's good if you learn to balance a mix per frequency band and can put precise labels on the frequency bands of various sound sources. In that way you learn how to balance the mix towards what you find to be beautiful. You can come a really long way by only using the volume faders really well no matter what speakers/cans you are mixing against, but when you take it one step further - balancing by frequency band - and learn that really well, then you make great sounding mixes on any cans or speakers you have available.

So, focus on objectively describing the sound coming from any cans. Balance precisely enough. Learn what sound you REALLY want to end up with and learn what that sound REALLY contains in terms of frequency content. Use multiple cans and speakers to broaden and widen the perspective on what you're truly hearing, so that you can put more precise labels on what you're hearing or trying to achieve. You cannot achieve all sound characteristics all at once, but you can learn them well and play with them beautifully throughout the course of the mix.

I know this is kind of a little off topic, but I do find this needs to be said. All too often we get focused on details and forget the real issues, it's a big issue when you say something sounds organic when it really doesn't. Or when you say something is soft and the pro sitting next to you turns up the volume and says no it's harsh.

In other words, the art here is really to enhance your music and sound awareness, sharpen the precision in your analytical process, then if that is done in conjunction with great speakers, then even better, but with a great ear you come a really long way. The good thing about that is that you do not have to be super intelligent about the hows and whys, because of your skills about the whats are so great. Let me give you an example: You compare a real B3 sound to the sampled counter parts. Then you give each sound really precise musical labels describing how you perceive them intelligently and emotionally, then you find you love the real B3 so you use that it becomes a success. You never had to precisely explain the whys and hows into it, get confused and end up choosing the sampled version, you just kept it real and it worked.

It is confusing at first when a pioneer (said in general terms) suddenly provides a new term to the language, what is it, what does it mean, how does it work, why was it coined. Signal-to-background noise is a term that explains the degree to which you can perceive a certain element or quality within the mix, what you are focusing on improving is the "signal" and what is distracting the perception of that "signal" is the "background noise", hence the ratio is how well you perceive that mix element or quality in the context. It could as well have been coined signal-to-context noise, but I have found "background" to be a little easier for most to understand.

Signal-to-background noise is a very important concept to understand, because it deals with enhancing the listener's perception about various elements and qualities about the mix. It also helps to provide a better understanding about how various "frequency types" react to each other within the mix. You can work with signal-to-background noise in many dimensions. In the upper dimensions you work with it in the production and arrangement process, in the lower dimensions you work with the console, the fxs and their order. An example would be A) placing a chorus behind a reverb as oppose to B) placing both effects in parallel, where B yields the higher signal-to-background noise ratio.

There is a significant difference between technically not being aware of this concept and being aware of it and working technically with it. It is a concept that applies to song writing, production, recording, mixing, mastering. In song writing it is how emotionally attached you make the lyrics, the emotion/heart is the signal and the brain is the background noise. In recording there are many aspects of it, one being how freely musicians can express themselves through their instruments, meaning how much their instrument/technique is in the way of their musical expressions (musical expressions vs musical abilities). In production there are many aspects of it too, for instance how clear are the chords in contrast with the tunings of the instruments. (with higher quality instrument tunings comes greater chord clearity potential, but in between there is noise you need to remove in order to improve the ratio, things like instrument bleed, false notes played, disharmonic distortion, frequency masking...)

One should not get stuck on the abstractness of this term, it is as abstract as you make it since it scales very well both vertically and horizontally. I use it mostly as a tool to sharpen and broaden my focus, to bring things to my awareness and technically deal with more aspects involved to improve the product.

I like some Sennheiser cans but I find that having a dedicated subwoofer that is isolated from the rest of the sound makes it easier to perceive exactly how much low end I have in the mix. The other aspect about them is that they are quite limited in terms of how they reproduce the stereo field. These weak points are two very critical ones that you need to have a strategy of dealing with. In commercial mixes using the stereo field efficiently is an incredibly important thing. I use several cans, but also a monitoring speaker solution that allows me to hear various frequency bands in isolation (various bands in various speakers). That gives me a very good frame of reference.

In order to better understand your cans, you can playback various commercial mixes through various cans and play the songs through various frequency bands in isolation, you can do this both in L-R and M-S modes to get multiple perspectives on it. In this way you can better understand how they will impact your balancing decisions and make you understand how they reproduce the sound.

Also remember that you can use cans in at least two ways: mixing against their frequency response as if they were flat in which case you get the opposite to their inaccuracies, mixing towards their natural sound (make your mix sound the way the cans make other mixes sound) in which case you try to align the sound to cancel out the inaccuracies. It takes some time to understand the impact of both of these application types, a way of ramping up more quickly is to get a frequency band level insight into each set of cans/speakers and based on that understanding take advantage of both application types to both shape the sound more easily and at the same time also get a higher quality mix balance.

I can recommend that you keep your mixes isolated to at least stem level, so that you have a chance of optimizing various stems against various cans/speakers in mastering. Deciding how to efficiently distribute the mix into stems used during mastering is something that really pays off. Overall it's great to have a great degree of isolation, just remember that transients can be very distracting (lower the signal to background noise), use compression and reverb on particular frequency bands on particular sound sources to harmonize those transients and hence add more emotion to your mixes. An example would be to soften and level out the transients in the bass guitar's upper mids and high end. This will make the bass line slightly more muddy and less separated in the stereo field, but it will help make sound sources like background vocals and electric guitars harmonize really nicely which will provide emotional content that otherwise is simply not there. It will also help separate out the other elements in the stereo field.

I'm sorry, what?? Can you repeat that??

You babble a lot!!
 
I'm sorry, what?? Can you repeat that??

You babble a lot!!

It's getting out of control. Looks like Rod ("the engineer") is gone. Though, I hope I didn't just jinx it. If we can get rid of this idiot, this place would be much better off. This is a joke.

Why doesn't he post any music, like many many people have asked him and he keeps ignoring? He's a fraud.
 
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It's getting out of control. Looks like Rod (the engineer") is gone. Though, I hope I didn't just jinx it. If we can rid of this idiot, this place would be much better off. This is a joke.

Why doesn't he post any music, like many many people have asked him and he keeps ignoring? He's a fraud.

HR obviously loves having these long-winded cryptic trolls. Quantity over quality. They generate posts.
 
Yes, this is the "not as flat" part I was talking about. They do make for good casual listening headphones, but you can learn them and they will work for mixing. They are good for tracking. Durable. I used to step on the cord and pull them off my head all the time. Never broke!! Eventually, after about 8 years, the cushions fell apart and I tossed them. $25 was a good investment.

Glad you like them. For the money, they are the best.
A funny thing is that last night I spent some time building a few sequence tracks in FL wearing the new cans. When I took them off of my head and cranked up the volume of my monitors they sounded absolutely like crap for some time! And the funniest part is that usually I enjoy my monitors sound! LoL!

:laughings:

About the price, unfortunatelly they wasn't as little as $25. Actually something around $70 because the 'Brasil cost' thing. But I still think that they worst every penny.

Very happy here and already considering to purchase the HD 280 in a few months!

:listeningmusic:

By the way how is the response of the HD 280 when compared with the 202? What about bass, coloring, etc? Is this a more flat can or is only a fancier model for casual listening?

:confused:
 
Really cheap headphones to me sound more like what the FM broadcast normally sounds like.

You can also hear little things like page-turns, heating system clicks, the organist farting and other irregularities that might be missed with a $10 headphone set.
I think I'll pass the fart of the organist, but I got your point!

:D

Yesterday for the first time in DECADES I put a decent can over my head (sorry if the HD 202 model shouldn't be called decent but at this time they really sounded like this for me) and it was simply amazing to feel my ears capturing such a wide palete of spatial positioning. I think that it was one of the things that I notice the biggest difference. And comparing with my old can, yes, it sound like a flattened, super-compressed FM sound.

Some people simply won't notice any difference though. My wife is one of those people. When I was watching a movie with her late at nigh yesterday she asked me about the new phones and I told her that it was too much better than the old ones and then she asked 'what's was the difference'. Man, I didn't even try to explain. I just mumbled something back and as expected the subject didn't carry on. LoL.

:D
 
It is confusing at first when a pioneer (said in general terms) suddenly provides a new term to the language....


Oh...so you're a pioneer in the field of audio. :)
Maybe it only seems that way to you because you're just trying to come to grips with audio stuff that's already been covered a million times, and is expressed in terms that everyone already understands.


Signal-to-background noise is a term that explains the degree to which you can perceive a certain element or quality within the mix, what you are focusing on improving is the "signal" and what is distracting the perception of that "signal" is the "background noise", hence the ratio is how well you perceive that mix element or quality in the context. It could as well have been coined signal-to-context noise, but I have found "background" to be a little easier for most to understand.

Signal-to-background noise is a very important concept to understand, because it deals with enhancing the listener's perception about various elements and qualities about the mix. It also helps to provide a better understanding about how various "frequency types" react to each other within the mix. You can work with signal-to-background noise in many dimensions. In the upper dimensions you work with it in the production and arrangement process, in the lower dimensions you work with the console, the fxs and their order. An example would be A) placing a chorus behind a reverb as oppose to B) placing both effects in parallel, where B yields the higher signal-to-background noise ratio.

Nice try...but it only means something to you.
The fact that you refer to all that background/context stuff in the audio as "noise" and the other stuff as "signal"....is totally misleading, so don't hold your breath about seeing "signal-to-background-noise" any time soon in any audio discussions other than the one you have going on in your head and your own world.

Look....every audio newbie (your not a pioneer) goes through some period of personal understanding where they create their own realities that only make sense to them. That's cool.....but at some point you really need to let go of all that nonsense if you are going to communicatre with other people doing audio.
 
every audio newbie goes through some period of personal understanding where they create their own realities that only make sense to them... but at some point you really need to let go of all that nonsense if you are going to communicatre with other people doing audio.
Man, this is a HUGE truth!

:thumbs up:
 
Today listening some of my old records (Chet Baker, Nat King Cole, Ray Conniff and others) I found a great application for the bass peak of my new cans. While I dislike the excess of bass for modern listening (and just cut them in the player EQ) by the other hand they provide an awesome and warm reinforcement of bass for old stuff.

:)
 
Man, this is a HUGE truth!

:thumbs up:

And just to be clear....that wasn't meant as any kind of put down. We are all newbies at the starting point.
I also went through that stuff many years back when I first started playing around with audio/recording.

It's only natural that you want to make sense of stuff, based on your newbie way of thinking and seeing things....but then you read, you learn, you gain experience, and you start to adopt the language and realites that the rest of the audio world uses and works by.
 
And just to be clear....that wasn't meant as any kind of put down. We are all newbies at the starting point.
I also went through that stuff many years back when I first started playing around with audio/recording.

It's only natural that you want to make sense of stuff, based on your newbie way of thinking and seeing things....but then you read, you learn, you gain experience, and you start to adopt the language and realites that the rest of the audio world uses and works by.
And it applies not only to audio but to any industry. And there's a reason for this that is people know what you are talking about...

;)
 
About the price, unfortunatelly they wasn't as little as $25. Actually something around $70 because the 'Brasil cost' thing. But I still think that they worst every penny.

I totally get the brazil cost thing. In my day job, we are having major issues with several customers down there and customs and costs are causing a lot of problems.


By the way how is the response of the HD 280 when compared with the 202? What about bass, coloring, etc? Is this a more flat can or is only a fancier model for casual listening?

:confused:

Very different. The HD280's are much flatter in response and don't enhance the audio. When you first use them, you'll think, "Why did I just waste my money on these?" But in the long run, you'll find out they don't lie as badly as other headphones. (Always better to mix with good monitors in a good room!!)

I would not use them for casual listening. They are great for tracking EXCEPT for the stupid coiled cord. I hate the cord. They are definitely better for mixing than the 202's, but I find a big difference with my vocal tracks when compared to my monitors. When I listen on the 280's, I want to bring up the vocal level. When I listen on my monitors, I want to turn them down. I can't explain why they sound different with just vocal tracks.

Hope this helps.
 
Very different. The HD280's are much flatter in response and don't enhance the audio. When you first use them, you'll think, "Why did I just waste my money on these?" But in the long run, you'll find out they don't lie as badly as other headphones. (Always better to mix with good monitors in a good room!!)

I would not use them for casual listening. They are great for tracking EXCEPT for the stupid coiled cord. I hate the cord. They are definitely better for mixing than the 202's, but I find a big difference with my vocal tracks when compared to my monitors. When I listen on the 280's, I want to bring up the vocal level. When I listen on my monitors, I want to turn them down. I can't explain why they sound different with just vocal tracks.

Hope this helps.

Helped a LOT. By what you told me, surely the 280 is a must have can! Thanks for your inputs, Chili!

:thumbs up:
 
Very different. The HD280's are much flatter in response and don't enhance the audio. When you first use them, you'll think, "Why did I just waste my money on these?" But in the long run, you'll find out they don't lie as badly as other headphones. (Always better to mix with good monitors in a good room!!)

LOL Get yourself some perspectives man. :thumbs up:

---------- Update ----------

Helped a LOT. By what you told me, surely the 280 is a must have can! Thanks for your inputs, Chili!

:thumbs up:

Must have cans? Not must have cans for me at least...

---------- Update ----------

You babble a lot!!

And you don't?

Here is the deal. You need a flat low end in your speaker solution and the HD 280 are not flat in the low end, period. This thread is full of arrogant talk against me and about the HD 280, for no good reason at all.
 
:facepalm: :D



Yeah really....get yourself some "perspectives"......man! :laughings:

He makes sense with 1-2 sentances.
You ramble for 5 paragraphs and make little sense to anyone but yourself. :p

Is the idea of a flat low end totally alien to you?

It does not make sense what he wrote, and what you say does not make any sense either. Do you have any idea about how extremely unflat the HD 280 really are?! But hey, we are all at some point newbies, this was not said to put anyone down.

You, Greg, Chili, RAMI, please say things that make sense. I don't care if it is in 2 sentences or 5 sentences though, if it makes sense I'm happy. LOL

http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=533&scale=10
 
Is the idea of a flat low end totally alien to you?

It does not make sense what he wrote, and what you say does not make any sense either. Do you have any idea about how extremely unflat the HD 280 really are?! But hey, we are all at some point newbies, this was not said to put anyone down.

You, Greg, Chili, RAMI, please say things that make sense. I don't care if it is in 2 sentences or 5 sentences though, if it makes sense I'm happy. LOL

http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=533&scale=10

I didn't say anything about headphones. I was just saying that you an HR endorsed troll. They won't ban you because they need people like you to stir up posts, even at the expense of good content.
 
Is the idea of a flat low end totally alien to you?


I wasn't refering to anything about the headphone bass response.....just the fact that you babble endlessly for paragraphs at a time, so you shouldn't be commenting about "babbling" to anyone else.
 
When I listen on the 280's, I want to bring up the vocal level. When I listen on my monitors, I want to turn them down. I can't explain why they sound different with just vocal tracks.

They sound different because they have very different frequency response in the vocal frequency bands that the ears are very sensitive to.

---------- Update ----------

I didn't say anything about headphones. I was just saying that you an HR endorsed troll. They won't ban you because they need people like you to stir up posts, even at the expense of good content.

You just spit out bs. Please don't do that.
 
You just spit out bs. Please don't do that.

No, it's obviously true. You are safe because they want/need the posts, even at the expense of good content. They allow trolls to have multiple accounts and talk shit just to keep the regular members entertained and posting. That shouldn't bother you, you should be happy that you actually have something to do here.
 
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