Why am I not wild about Mesa-Boogie?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Light
  • Start date Start date
famous beagle said:
Yeah this argument is just as pointless as the analog vs. digital one.
Click to expand...


No, this is quite different. This is simply bad design. Given what is available to them in manufacturing this amp, they could easily fix these problems. But it would cost more money. This isn't a "oh, I don't like the way that sounds" thing. This is a, "what the fuck, why doesn't this thing WORK" thing.

Yeah, old Fenders distort (thank god), and yes that was not the intent - but they were doing the best they could with what was available at the time. But while they may distort, they don't go into uncontrolled oscillation. This is different. This could be fixed by without loosing anything by simply spending a couple of bucks on shielded cable inside the amp, a larger box, and doing getting rid of the PC board mounted tube sockets. This would add a bit to the parts cost, and a bit more to the cost of labor (you can't solder chassis mounted tube sockets with a wave soldering machine, you have to do them by hand). A few simple (but slightly more expensive) changes to the design, and you would have the same amp - but it would actually work right no matter where you set the knobs. It would still be a pretty boring amp (to my ears), but at least it would WORK.

Bad design is bad design, even if the final product has some useful modes of operation. If the only way to get the amp to do what they wanted it to do was to have these issues, that's one thing. This isn't that. This is lazy, sloppy, BAD design.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Corndog said:
A Boogie and a Ric...there's a combination made in Hades.
Click to expand...

yea I just wanted to talk shit bout les pauls. Didn't think about how this was a mesa boogie thread. What would you play a ric through? If you wanted it loud and skronky
 
Loud & Skronky wouldn't really sound like a Rick. Buy a plank instead.
 
Light said:
No, this is quite different. This is simply bad design. Given what is available to them in manufacturing this amp, they could easily fix these problems. But it would cost more money. This isn't a "oh, I don't like the way that sounds" thing. This is a, "what the fuck, why doesn't this thing WORK" thing.

Yeah, old Fenders distort (thank god), and yes that was not the intent - but they were doing the best they could with what was available at the time. But while they may distort, they don't go into uncontrolled oscillation. This is different. This could be fixed by without loosing anything by simply spending a couple of bucks on shielded cable inside the amp, a larger box, and doing getting rid of the PC board mounted tube sockets. This would add a bit to the parts cost, and a bit more to the cost of labor (you can't solder chassis mounted tube sockets with a wave soldering machine, you have to do them by hand). A few simple (but slightly more expensive) changes to the design, and you would have the same amp - but it would actually work right no matter where you set the knobs. It would still be a pretty boring amp (to my ears), but at least it would WORK.

Bad design is bad design, even if the final product has some useful modes of operation. If the only way to get the amp to do what they wanted it to do was to have these issues, that's one thing. This isn't that. This is lazy, sloppy, BAD design.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Click to expand...


But my whole point is, Mesas work fine for thousands of people. The type of use that you're talking about is not what Mesas are used for, therefore, it's not a problem.

It's a matter of principles vs. practicality. There are plenty of times we make the best out of something in terms of being practical. Think about the Western diatonic scale. Talk about a bad design? We're dividing the octave up into a non-tunable way. It cannot be tuned properly. But we make compromises, and in day-to-day life 99.99% of people get on with it just fine. You should know as much as anyone about the compromises you have to make with tuning a guitar. It's impossible to make each chord sound as good as the other.

The thing is, though, it's not necessary for every day life, just like the ability to run both the master and the preamp volume on 10 with a Mesa is not required by the people who use them. And it's not as though they lied about it in the manual text you pasted. They simply said (or implied) this is normal for that amplifier. And, since that's the way those amps are designed, that is a normal issue that arises when you crank both volumes. They didn't say "all amplifiers have this problem; it's just inherent in tube amp design."

Anyway ... I don't like Boogies, but plenty people do, and the above issue is obviously not a problem for any of them.
 
Light said:
You mean higher gain/high volume stuff? That is EXACTLY where these things are the biggest problem. In any event, it's still an amp that doesn't work right.
Click to expand...

Light, your distaste for ANYTHING with a cascading gain preamp around here is no secret. ;)


That said, have you ever been in the room with a Rectifier the volume all the way up? I mean, not just turned up a little, but actually wide open, with the channel and master cranked? Trust me, dude, there's high gain/high volume, and then there's this.

As far as Rectifiers go, mine's on the lower end of the power spectrum (I own a Rectoverb-50 combo, 50 watts into a 1x12 open backed cab). That said, even with a THD Hot Plate set for -16db of attenuation, about the loudest I can run the thing in my apartment (where my neighbors and roommates are pretty tolerant) is the channel at maybe 9-10 o'clock, and the master at about 11. Pull that Hot Plate out of the equation, and that would be gigging volume, plus some. Even running both the channel volume and master at noon would be the sort of output level that would probably drown out every single drummer I've ever played with, and when you consider the fact that both controls are only at the midpoint of their operating range and therefore only 50% towards that "don't run the volume and master wide open" range.

And, this is with a 50 watt 1x12 combo, not a 100 or, god forbid, 150 watt half or full stack. I mean, saying that it's an amp designed for high gain/high volume playing situations and thus this is a major design flaw sort of misses the point. I don't know a single Mesa owner who's ever needed even remotely all of the possible output on tap.

Hell, if you're anywhere near Massachusetts, dude, shoot me a PM, and I'll gladly have you over some afternoon to check the thing out. We can drag it over to my roommate's room, and I'll mutilate his drum kit while you stand there and play anything with the gain, channel, and master all up at 12 noon. If you can even hear me, I'll apologize for ever doubting you. :D

EDIT - hell, even my 45-watt Nomad 2x12 running maybe halfway up was louder than my old TSL-100 head through a Recto 2x12 running full bore at 100 watt mode with a set of E34L's in the poweramp...
 
What none of you seem to understand is that I'm not talking (in this instance) about the tone or volume of the amp. What I'm talking about here is quite simply lazy, sloppy, BAD design. These things are not that hard to fix. They are not that expensive to fix. A few simple, small changes, and the amp will actually work in ever possible mode of operation. The fact that it doesn't, whatever Mesa says, is NOT normal. It's wrong. And there is no legitimate reason not to make it work right. It is a sign of bad craftsmanship. They are putting out a defective product, and then claiming their fuck up as a feature. That's not a legitimate business practice, in my view. And yes, I've been in a room with a 100W Dual Rectifier at full volume (one of the early ones that actually sounds pretty good - though that may have been because it was being played by Reeves Gabrel) - though he probably didn't have the gain dimed. That's not the point. The point is, they are putting out shit in a shinny package and calling it jewelry.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
I hate Marshalls. O.K. Everybody jump on me.
I also hate Boogies, Vox'es['es?] Line 6, Fender M80's and a host of other amps
BUT ... that is my personal opinion.
I like my '77 Super Twin Reverb 'cause I'm USED TO IT!!! It gives me what I want and that's that.
I also have a Valve Special...meh...


If someone showed up at your door with a fist full of cash and some good songs with a Frontman 15...are you gonna turn him away???

I'd mic that bitch up in a second!!!
 
Yikes. I own a Boogie and have uesd it for 20 or so years. My manual says the same stuff. True to their statement if you crank both of those knbby's the amp will go quite wild (oscillation). poor design, maybe or maybe a wild ass disclaimer??? who knows. I find the amp quite versatile and toneful. My version is the small chassis head. On a side note somewhat OT, an old tube guy from my home town hated the things, bad layout, too much gain at early stages, ageneral pain in the ass to work on etc.... mine has been a fine tool and made nice tones. my .o2. It sounds good for what it does and has yet to blow up. thanks. W. Funny though, my fender is warming up now. need to do a little David Baker. Be well all.
 
I've never had a boogie turned up that loud.
Click to expand...

for real

i played live a couple years ago with a triple recto, and that beast was deafeningly loud with the master at 3. i don't know why it really matters how shitty they sound when running full blast...ok, they cut corners to make their product cheaper...welcome to mass manufacturing. if you don't like it, don't buy a mesa.
 
I have had mine cranked volume up to 10, but I dont do metal and I never run the gain high enough to get fizzy distortion. And my speaker is in a booth covered with blankets for mic'ing, so my guitar will not feedback any way. It sounds great turned up this way!

Only time I ever got microphonics from a Mesa was when I put an old black plate RCA in a Subway Rocket and cranked it up to 10. It quit doing that when I took the black plate out.
 
not being a guitarist i'll let you guys argue sound of it... but as a tech i always dug their stuff... and the best thing is their quality controll... they use tighter tolerence parts and you can be pretty safe in buying a boxed unit sounding just like anyother one...
 
Light said:
The point is, they are putting out shit in a shinny package and calling it jewelry.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Click to expand...

I gotta tell you Light, that I am a great supporter of Mesa Boogie amps. I'm on my third one since 1980 when I got one when i graduated GIT.
All three have been fabulous. I've played in many situations with them - including a soul revue in an ice hockey stadium, recording - it's in the 'live room' with the volume on 10 and I'm in the control room with the baddest rock sound you can imagine on the monitors, playing with Sinatra's band at a Vegas dinner dance for NASA, with a Tele, with a 345, with a goldtop . . . you name it.

Great amps.

Great amps.

ymmv . . .
 
foo said:
I gotta tell you Light, that I am a great supporter of Mesa Boogie amps. I'm on my third one since 1980 when I got one when i graduated GIT.
All three have been fabulous. I've played in many situations with them - including a soul revue in an ice hockey stadium, recording - it's in the 'live room' with the volume on 10 and I'm in the control room with the baddest rock sound you can imagine on the monitors, playing with Sinatra's band at a Vegas dinner dance for NASA, with a Tele, with a 345, with a goldtop . . . you name it.

Great amps.

Great amps.

ymmv . . .
Click to expand...


I'm not talking (here) about tone. Why doesn't anybody get that? I don't like the tone, but that is not the issue. The issue is they are putting out amps which don't work right, and then they try to tell people it's normal. THAT is my complaint in this thread, NOT the tone.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
I'm not talking (here) about tone. Why doesn't anybody get that? I don't like the tone, but that is not the issue. The issue is they are putting out amps which don't work right, and then they try to tell people it's normal. THAT is my complaint in this thread, NOT the tone.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Click to expand...
Yeah, we all get it.
What you don't get is that it doesn't matter. No one has had an issue with this problem. So why wouldn't Mesa save a couple bucks to make the amp have a poor feature that doesn't effect any of their customers?

Just my thoughts.
I've always wanted a Mesa. Heard fantastic things.


-Elliot
 
elenore19 said:
Yeah, we all get it.
What you don't get is that it doesn't matter. No one has had an issue with this problem. So why wouldn't Mesa save a couple bucks to make the amp have a poor feature that doesn't effect any of their customers?

Just my thoughts.
I've always wanted a Mesa. Heard fantastic things.


-Elliot
Click to expand...

Exactly.

This is kind of like computers and the Y2K thing. You could argue that every computer released before this realization had a big flaw; and sure, they did. The thing is that it didn't matter at all to anybody in the years from 1985 to 1998 or so. Now obviously, this example is a bit different because it meant that companies had to spend money in order to correct the problem, but my point is that this design flaw was a non-issue for everyone for years.

And the Boogie thing is like a Y2K problem that never has a date to worry about.

Again, Light. Read your original quote:

Boogie is not saying that this is normal for any or every amp! They say it's normal for that specific Boogie amp. And considering the amp's design, they're absolutely right. Sure, they could have taken care of that "problem," but since the amps are not meant to be used that way, it's not .... a .... problem.

You can argue "but .. but ... but" until you're blue in the face, but like I said in an earlier post, it's a matter of practical vs. principle. Sure the principle bothers you, but in every-day practical application, it's a non-issue. Therefore, Boogie and the thousands of Boogie users don't consider it a problem.
 
Light said:
I'm not talking (here) about tone. Why doesn't anybody get that? I don't like the tone, but that is not the issue. The issue is they are putting out amps which don't work right, and then they try to tell people it's normal. THAT is my complaint in this thread, NOT the tone.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Click to expand...

So even though Mesa amps sound like flat lifeless pieces of wet cardboard, you hate them because of a design flaw that has no affect on normal usage. That sounds reasonable to me. :D
 
ocnor said:
So even though Mesa amps sound like flat lifeless pieces of wet cardboard, you hate them because of a design flaw that has no affect on normal usage. That sounds reasonable to me. :D
Click to expand...

Now, that's a sweeping generalization aimed at irritating all the Mesa afficianados, wouldn't you say? One might even call it a troll. ;^)

FWIW, I have an old Mesa SOB (Son Of Boogie). It's not my first choice of my amps anymore since I got my '65 BFDR, but it sounds pretty good to me. Nothing flat or lifeless or wet cardboardy (whatever THAT means) about it. I've never run afoul of the "design flaw", either.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top