Why a mixer?

  • Thread starter Thread starter f. lai
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Ethan: my info comes from the moderators of each of the forums not the random people... themixfix, Mixerman, fletcher, etc.
y would the person mixing or the person mastering WANT to send it out of the box if its just as good in the box its less time consuming to mix in the box? In a matter of fact i'ma try to mix in the box myself now since i have a lil more experience...maybe its my experience and the help from everyone from all the sites i travel too that makes my recording sound better before and not sending it thru the mackie and compensatin for the loss in high and lows

its digital vs analog indirectly cuz wit outboard gear u can patch analog efx to widened and phatten the sound can't do that on a computer DAW
 
Teacher said:

its digital vs analog indirectly cuz wit outboard gear u can patch analog efx to widened and phatten the sound can't do that on a computer DAW
Click to expand...

Methinks you might be confused a bit teacher. Analog FX? Like which, for example? You do know that the boxes like Lexicon Reverbs, Auto Tune, blah blah are digital ?
 
T,

> y would the person mixing or the person mastering WANT to send it out of the box if its just as good in the box its less time consuming to mix in the box? <

Why do people buy Lottery tickets when they have no chance of winning big? Why do people pay more for high-test gasoline when their car runs exactly the same with regular? Why is the sky blue? I don't care what Fletcher or anyone else there says or does. It doesn't make it fact. Maybe they have a favorite outboard gadget they use all the time, which has a specific sound that's different from all other gadgets including outboard and "inboard." The point is there's no reason for DSP within a personal computer to be any worse than DSP in an outboard "computer."

> wit outboard gear u can patch analog efx to widened and phatten the sound can't do that on a computer DAW <

This simply is not true. Can you even define "widen" or "phatten" for me?

--Ethan
 
I never put that high-test shit in my car .....maybe that's why my recording's sound bad? :D



-nave
 
Teacher, go post a similar message on Home Rec recording Mixing/mastering forum and ask for sjoko2 and Blue Bear to give you an answer.

What you have suggested here is just plain wrong, it doesn't stack up logically, technically nor acoustically either.
 
as for as efx i was thinking more along the line of tube compressors, but u do have a good point but the digital reverb outboard units by lexicon or even TC which makes plugins are better then the plug-ins...how do i know easy we live in a capitalist society meaning prices are PRIMARILY determined by demand hmmmmm....wait a WHOLE set of TC plugins from the compressor to the eq is about 1000 while just ONE h/w reverb unit cost OVER 1000 hmmmmm now a smart person would realize if the plug in sounds just as good BUY the PLUG-IN which would cause H/w units to go down in price its economics...but guess what THEY DON'T...and guess what they do go UP in PRICE especially the ANALOG units, while someone makes a new plug in every 3 months to try and get that "ANALOG" sound....y would u want a boy to sound like a girl...just get a girl

Ethan Whiner:
If i knew how to make my sound "wider" or "phatter" i wouldn't have ANY beef wit DAW recording....what i know is what i hear...i listen to my recordings they sound pretty decent just not "phat" "warm" whatever analog buzzword u wanna use...go ask engineers in prosoundweb and asked if any commercial released hit was mixed totally in the boxed...like i said before like 99% or sent to outboard gear...which would make me conclude that computer programs at THIS time arent capable of that type of quality...and ethan i peeped ur website i saw u make reference to computer programs summing problems wit the fader hmmmmm what i say about the math is mobojombo hmmmm...

paul:
when u say acoustically u mean when u record a drum on to the computer it sounds the same as it does from the instrument...are u serious???(if thats what u mean)...and i don't gotta ask blue bear cuz he goes to prosoundweb too and it just fine with all the talk of computer recording shortfalls(its mainly protools cuz thats "industry std.") but what would that solve blue bear studio if i'm not mistaken is mostly analog anyway....

BTW y do they call plug-in editin destructive editing hmmmmmm....
 
T,

> we live in a capitalist society meaning prices are PRIMARILY determined by demand <

That I agree with 100%.

> a WHOLE set of TC plugins from the compressor to the eq is about 1000 while just ONE h/w reverb unit cost OVER 1000 <

So? A whole set of UltraFunk plug-ins costs only $200 and is just as good or better than some collections that cost $1000 or more.

> now a smart person would realize if the plug in sounds just as good BUY the PLUG-IN which would cause H/w units to go down in price its economics...but guess what THEY DON'T <

Which just proves that some of those folks aren't as smart as you seem to think they are. However, I did state (earlier) that many reverb plug-ins are not as dense as stand-alone units because they have to leave some computing power for everything else that's running in a DAW. But other plug-ins can be just as good as outboard models. Heck, I'll take my UltraFunk EQ and compressor over outboard analog units any day. The UF plugs have less distortion and noise, which is the primary consideration, and they also have more and better control of the parameters.

> i listen to my recordings they sound pretty decent just not "phat" "warm" whatever analog buzzword u wanna use <

So the answer is you need to learn more about your craft, not bash plug-ins! As they say, a good carpenter never blames his tools.

> i peeped ur website i saw u make reference to computer programs summing problems wit the fader <

I don't think so! Which article? Not on my web site...

> BTW y do they call plug-in editin destructive editing <

Because it permanently changes the Wave file. But using plug-ins does not have to be destructive. I use plug-ins in Sonar and SAW all the time to process tracks on the fly. Nothing is written permanently, and I can always change settings at any time.

--Ethan
 
can u send me the link to ur website...i don't remember the article but it had to do with what was good about recording in 24 bit...and ur reason was in 24 bit it hides the distortion plug-ins and faders because of rounding and truncating etc...or maybe it wasn't on ya site but i'm almost sure it was....
 
i didn't get time to look at the site

but here are the specifics to the Pro Tools Mixer:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/recpit/viewtopic.php?t=633

i think i can venture out to say that all audio apps prolly work similarly
So? A whole set of UltraFunk plug-ins costs only $200 and is just as good or better than some collections that cost $1000 or more.

> now a smart person would realize if the plug in sounds just as good BUY the PLUG-IN which would cause H/w units to go down in price its economics...but guess what THEY DON'T <

Which just proves that some of those folks aren't as smart as you seem to think they are. However, I did state (earlier) that many reverb plug-ins are not as dense as stand-alone units because they have to leave some computing power for everything else that's running in a DAW. But other plug-ins can be just as good as outboard models. Heck, I'll take my UltraFunk EQ and compressor over outboard analog units any day. The UF plugs have less distortion and noise, which is the primary consideration, and they also have more and better control of the parameters.

> i listen to my recordings they sound pretty decent just not "phat" "warm" whatever analog buzzword u wanna use <
Click to expand...

so ur tellin me everyone and there moms jumped on the pro tools wagon just so they can send it to outboar gear...instead of paying $1000 for every type of efx that u can use on as many tracks as u want. but they would rather pay 1000 for 1 h/w that can be used on 1 track, and plug-ins and outboard units are equal...damn ya professional engineers mixer masters etc... are idiots take a class in economics... :rolleyes:
 
Teacher, I'm just curious, what's your background in audio?
 
Y does my background matter? I'm basically regurgitating what mods on this site are preaching, i'm not gonna lie to myself and u guys and say i'm an expert but my EARS don't lie...and i was curious to why that website helped out a great deal to let me know y my sounds sound that y and y a commercial release sounds that way, i prolly butchered the reason y outboard mixer sounds better thats y i posted it so ya can enter the lions den www.prosoundweb.com/recpit

Ethan:

I found it, its under ur Sound Blaster Audigy review and I QUOTE

Another new feature that may interest some folks is the ability to play back at higher sample rates and bit depths. Note that these are available only for playback, and recording is still fixed at 48 KHz. and 16 bits. Call me a dinosaur, but I happen to think CDs sound great. It is true that higher bit depths are important when used internally in a recording program, to minimize the distortion caused by rounding errors when changing volume or applying plug-in effects. But it's easy enough to record at sensible levels, and using 44.1 KHz. at 16 bits avoids the wasted disk space and CPU usage when recording with the extended formats. Even though the Audigy operates internally at a fixed sample rate of 48 KHz., I heard no degradation caused by sample rate conversion when recording or playing back at 44.1 KHz.
Click to expand...

also when u say degradation are u saying when u recorded from lets say a drum machine or a keyboard they sounded exactly the same?? u must have some wicked preamps. cuz i can hear the lack of openess in deep bottoms and the lack of clarity in highs @ 24/44.1
 
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Perhaps it is time for one of our legendary group hugs. C'mon fellas...
 
hahaha

I just feel obligated to let people know what they are getting themselves into when recording on a computer no one told me these things if they did i prolly would still record on computer cuz of ease of use...also sound quality don't make the song the performance does, sound quality just helps it

but especially when someone says plugins and application mixing is equal to outboard gear...which i think is absolutely false, when ur gonna spend alot of money on something u need to hear the negatives as well as the positives
 
> here are the specifics to the Pro Tools Mixer: <

None of that discussion has anything to do with mixing in a DAW like Sonar.

> i think i can venture out to say that all audio apps prolly work similarly <

Not even close. Audio programs combine tracks by adding and multiplying numbers in the CPU, and ProTools uses dedicated DSP hardware. Since credentials are so important to you, here's part of a quote by Roger Nichols (I hope you know who he is!) from his forum on musicplayer.com:

"I am doing a project right now completely in ProTools 24bit/48kHz. The musicians were great, everything sounds great, so that is all I care about. The TDM buss doesn't sound thin to me. What is a thin TDM buss supposed to sound like? I have done a dozen albums completely in ProTools, including three Grammy winning Bela Fleck albums. You take what you have to work with and you make it sound good. If you have an analog board to mix through like a Neve or SSL, then that is what you use. The album of the year this year and best engineered recording were recorded 16-bit and mixed through a 30 year old analog Neve console. Analog consoles soften up the sound a little. We liked it better through a digital console, but we could not get the time we needed at a digital console studio, so we mixed it through the analog console and did the best we could."

> so ur tellin me everyone and there moms jumped on the pro tools wagon just so they can send it to outboar gear <

I won't even try to explain why people do what they do, or buy what they buy. It's irrelevant to what is actually true.

--Ethan
 
T,

> It is true that higher bit depths are important when used internally in a recording program, to minimize the distortion caused by rounding errors when changing volume or applying plug-in effects. <

That is very different from storing your data on hard disk at 24 bits!

> are u saying when u recorded from lets say a drum machine or a keyboard they sounded exactly the same?? u must have some wicked preamps. cuz i can hear the lack of openess in deep bottoms and the lack of clarity in highs @ 24/44.1 <

Is your drum machine or keyboard outputting 24 bits at 96 KHz. using samples made at that bit depth and sample rate? If your synths sound different after recording, there's something wrong with your recording chain. Or you don't know what you're doing.

--Ethan
 
ok...u use sonar what special magic trick do u do then ?
i press record thats all u gotta do thats what make comp recording so great...if thats wrong then i don't know how to work it properly..i can see we will never agree u like that harsh then sound i like the smooth open melodic sound simple as that...

y don't u bring your views to prosoundweb anyway i never see u makin noise there...
 
yo ethan go vote in computer recording i made a thread "Computer recording does it degrade your sound"
 
Teacher, teach us.
You keep mentioning this other website. I have not checked it out yet, but what is your point? It seems to me that you are saying "The guys in the other BBS really know their s*%t". If so, why do you come to this site? If those guys are the pros with the knowledge of right vs. wrong, why bother with the amateurs here?
I, for one, am grateful that Ethan takes his time to hang out here.I cant speak for the group, but I am sure somebody will back up my opinion in a heartbeat. Mr. Winer has articles out there that I have actually printed out. He has been published in the STRAD, which is a mag for Classical Snobs like me.

Outboard vs. plug-ins is very blurred now, due to faster CPUs, RAM, yada yada. Ethan is trying to tell you this: an outboard box with a chip is becoming the same thing as a computer with a fast CPU and Plug-ins. It is the same thing.

C'mon Teacher, ya big lug. Give us a hug. We are fortunate to have someone in our forum who provides great info. We have lots of folks here ( Bruce, Ed, Ethan, AlChuck, et al) who give great advice. Perhaps we can learn more from them if we let them give advice, and dont play the game of challenging their expertise. Peace, Dave.
 
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