F
f. lai
New member
If SONAR has its own mixer, and there are soundcards on the market with all the ins and outs you need, why bother with an external mixer? Explain please.
Paul881
Look Mom, I can play!
Not all soundcards have sufficient inputs, plus there are other reasons for using a mixer. Say you were recording a band with 3 guitarists, 2 vocalists and a four mic drum kit, plus a keyboard player.
You would want to sub-mix the drums, guitars and vocals seperately first. And be able to monitor each input and group input seperately before it goes into your system (DAW).
Soundcraft have a great pdf download that shows a number of ways you can use a mixer, its an excellent resource.
http://www.soundcraft.com/
Check out their Spirit Guide to Mixing. I downloaded it and printed it off. Its generic, not particularly aimed at their own product range.
Hope this helps.
You would want to sub-mix the drums, guitars and vocals seperately first. And be able to monitor each input and group input seperately before it goes into your system (DAW).
Soundcraft have a great pdf download that shows a number of ways you can use a mixer, its an excellent resource.
http://www.soundcraft.com/
Check out their Spirit Guide to Mixing. I downloaded it and printed it off. Its generic, not particularly aimed at their own product range.
Hope this helps.
dachay2tnr
One Hit Wonder
One of the most important reasons to use a mixer is for the pre-amps.
Some soundcards have preamps built into them, but most do not. You'll need to pre-amplify a mic signal before you can connect it to your sound card (if it didn't come with built-in preamps). A mixer tends to be more economical than buying multiple standalone pre-amps (and gives you lots of other bennie's as well - multiple bus routing options, effect sends, headphone jacks, sources for multiple speaker outputs [e.g., Main, Control Room, etc.] and so on and so forth).
Cake's mixer is primarily for dealing with the sound after it's been recorded. A hardware mixer helps you get the recording done in the first place (and also can help with playback).
Some soundcards have preamps built into them, but most do not. You'll need to pre-amplify a mic signal before you can connect it to your sound card (if it didn't come with built-in preamps). A mixer tends to be more economical than buying multiple standalone pre-amps (and gives you lots of other bennie's as well - multiple bus routing options, effect sends, headphone jacks, sources for multiple speaker outputs [e.g., Main, Control Room, etc.] and so on and so forth).
Cake's mixer is primarily for dealing with the sound after it's been recorded. A hardware mixer helps you get the recording done in the first place (and also can help with playback).
Ethan Winer
Acoustics Expert
F,
> why bother with an external mixer?
That's an excellent question. As dachay explained, one important reason is for the mike preamps. Another reason is for monitoring while recording. And yet another is to have a single convenient volume control you can reach for when all of a sudden something feeds back really loudly!
You are correct that it makes sense to do all mixing within Sonar. Then when you hear what you want, it's a single step to export the mix to a single wave file. The mix can be recalled at any time, then changed and exported again. If you mix parts of the song through an external mixer you'll have to set the knobs exactly the same again, which is a pain.
I have a little Mackie 1202 I use for the preamps, but I also have it set up so I can hear myself through headphones while I am recording. The sound card is fed from the 1202's insert point, so all that is between the mike and the computer is the preamp. The trim (preamp gain) controls the level going to the computer, and the mixer's main channel controls how loudly I hear that mike in the mix. This independance is very important!
The sound card comes back into another mixer input, so I can control how loud I hear the track I'm playing with. I also have a cheapo hardware reverb unit connected to the Mackie so I can hear myself with a little reverb, and that reverb doesn't get sent to the computer and recorded. This is more efficient than using Sonar's built-in monitoring, which is always delayed a little.
--Ethan
> why bother with an external mixer?
That's an excellent question. As dachay explained, one important reason is for the mike preamps. Another reason is for monitoring while recording. And yet another is to have a single convenient volume control you can reach for when all of a sudden something feeds back really loudly!
You are correct that it makes sense to do all mixing within Sonar. Then when you hear what you want, it's a single step to export the mix to a single wave file. The mix can be recalled at any time, then changed and exported again. If you mix parts of the song through an external mixer you'll have to set the knobs exactly the same again, which is a pain.
I have a little Mackie 1202 I use for the preamps, but I also have it set up so I can hear myself through headphones while I am recording. The sound card is fed from the 1202's insert point, so all that is between the mike and the computer is the preamp. The trim (preamp gain) controls the level going to the computer, and the mixer's main channel controls how loudly I hear that mike in the mix. This independance is very important!
The sound card comes back into another mixer input, so I can control how loud I hear the track I'm playing with. I also have a cheapo hardware reverb unit connected to the Mackie so I can hear myself with a little reverb, and that reverb doesn't get sent to the computer and recorded. This is more efficient than using Sonar's built-in monitoring, which is always delayed a little.
--Ethan
Z
Zarkman
New member
All of the above is true, however, if you do a little research you'll find that there are breakout boxes (or rack units) that have the capabilities mentioned. If your sound card handles everything, there is no benefit other than a physical interface you can touch. There are many engineers that have come from the analog world and are plainly more comfortable with the interface a console provides. There are a few disadvantages as well though. You'll never have to clean or repair bad or dirty slider pots, and your sound card manufacturer may offer an upgrade to your mixer, which would be like getting a free console in the mail!
Teacher
New member
all are good reasons but the best reason is
mixing in the box(totally within sonar) is sonically worse
then mixing thru even a cheap mixer like a mackie
mixing in the box(totally within sonar) is sonically worse
then mixing thru even a cheap mixer like a mackie
Ethan Winer
Acoustics Expert
> mixing in the box(totally within sonar) is sonically worse
then mixing thru even a cheap mixer like a mackie <
That's just plain silly. In what way is it "worse?" Exactly what suffers and how? I presume you have some measurements to back that up...
--Ethan
then mixing thru even a cheap mixer like a mackie <
That's just plain silly. In what way is it "worse?" Exactly what suffers and how? I presume you have some measurements to back that up...
--Ethan
AlChuck
Well-known member
Even if all your inputs are taken careo of otherwise and you mix down in SONAR, mixers can still be very useful for routing outputs to speakers. In my setup, I have two soundcards, with a total of six analog outputs. It's nice to be able to control their relative volumes from the sliders. I can also plug the line outs of a tape deck or consumer stereo into it and control that too. Without the mixer I'd have much more trouble routing everything.
Z
Zarkman
New member
Exactly, you would do the same thing on a mixer on the computer screen. There's no difference except for the act of using you hand to touch a pysical control instead of using a mouse to move a digital control. Another cool thing is the act of patching outputs to inputs and routing to output is all handled inside my computer. I only need patch cables when I leave to go to a drum unit or other effect unit. I like digital patching, cables never wear out.
Teacher
New member
Computers have sucky bottoms and sucky highs... more processing(math equations) the computer does the more truncating and rounding it does which f*cks the audio up...the facts i have to back this up are my 2 ears...take ya argument to pro who use software equip and outboard gear and hear what they say fact is fact computer recording is thin with sucky highs and lows
W
washburn10
New member
mixer
as u guys r talking about mixers, let met send u the message im putting ou,... any help ?
hello!!
ive read this article on http://www.exhardware.com/reviews.php?Id=53
and browsed all your website, but i have a question
and i do have everything it said i need for a digital home studio:
A well equipped computer (K7 800 512RAM 40GB, CDRW, WINXP "NEVER CRASHES", although sometimes cakewalk does "drop outs")
A large hard drive to store all your digital data
A central "interface" where instruments or cables are plugged in to
High quality headphones/studio monitors (speakers)
Musical instruments and microphones
Good quality interconnecting cables
Software (cakewalk sonar 1.01)
-(4speakrs in the studio, 2 monitors inside)
-(12 channel mixer + the "interface")
also, i have the drums, 6 mic, 2 guitars 1 bass, 3 amps for them, and 1 extra 200W amp for the speakers.
to plug stuff on the mixer, i use the central "interfece" with lies inside the studio (i have an "aquarium" isolated form the studio with a windows glass)
as i have 4 speakers on the studio, i would like to plug them in the mixer and control each one individually... apparentrly i have to plugh the speakers on the 200W amp, so i can only control on the mixer the level of the microfone, guitars, etc,but i cannot control the speakers inside the studio individually. I really need to control each of the 4 speakers so i have no feedback on praticin/jam sessions. I though i could just plug the 200W amp on the mixer, and all the mixer would be amplified, so i could plug microfones and speaker directly on the mixer.
The bad thing is my mixer doesnt have a line out for each channel!! only:
1 stereo line out
2 stereo effec RTN (dont know what that is!)
2 stereo effects send
1 stereo tape in RCA
1 stereo tape out RCA
plus everything else (monitor and headphone)
as i said, i wish i could amplify the mixer, and plug all the studio's speakers on the mixer for better control!!
and the 200w amp only has 2 inputs! thats it! ant the red/black output for the speakers! no regular output!
this is what im doing, at least for jam sessions (not recording)
microfone>interface that leads to mïxer>mixer>amp>4speaker
that way i cannot control each of the 4 speakers individually!
what i wanted was:
microfone>interface that leads to mïxer>"amplified mixer">4speaker hooked to the mixer!
that way, i would connect the speaker on the mixer, and have better control!!
thanks for any help!
keep on rocking!
icq 24227587
as u guys r talking about mixers, let met send u the message im putting ou,... any help ?
hello!!
ive read this article on http://www.exhardware.com/reviews.php?Id=53
and browsed all your website, but i have a question
and i do have everything it said i need for a digital home studio:
A well equipped computer (K7 800 512RAM 40GB, CDRW, WINXP "NEVER CRASHES", although sometimes cakewalk does "drop outs")
A large hard drive to store all your digital data
A central "interface" where instruments or cables are plugged in to
High quality headphones/studio monitors (speakers)
Musical instruments and microphones
Good quality interconnecting cables
Software (cakewalk sonar 1.01)
-(4speakrs in the studio, 2 monitors inside)
-(12 channel mixer + the "interface")
also, i have the drums, 6 mic, 2 guitars 1 bass, 3 amps for them, and 1 extra 200W amp for the speakers.
to plug stuff on the mixer, i use the central "interfece" with lies inside the studio (i have an "aquarium" isolated form the studio with a windows glass)
as i have 4 speakers on the studio, i would like to plug them in the mixer and control each one individually... apparentrly i have to plugh the speakers on the 200W amp, so i can only control on the mixer the level of the microfone, guitars, etc,but i cannot control the speakers inside the studio individually. I really need to control each of the 4 speakers so i have no feedback on praticin/jam sessions. I though i could just plug the 200W amp on the mixer, and all the mixer would be amplified, so i could plug microfones and speaker directly on the mixer.
The bad thing is my mixer doesnt have a line out for each channel!! only:
1 stereo line out
2 stereo effec RTN (dont know what that is!)
2 stereo effects send
1 stereo tape in RCA
1 stereo tape out RCA
plus everything else (monitor and headphone)
as i said, i wish i could amplify the mixer, and plug all the studio's speakers on the mixer for better control!!
and the 200w amp only has 2 inputs! thats it! ant the red/black output for the speakers! no regular output!
this is what im doing, at least for jam sessions (not recording)
microfone>interface that leads to mïxer>mixer>amp>4speaker
that way i cannot control each of the 4 speakers individually!
what i wanted was:
microfone>interface that leads to mïxer>"amplified mixer">4speaker hooked to the mixer!
that way, i would connect the speaker on the mixer, and have better control!!
thanks for any help!
keep on rocking!
icq 24227587
DavidK
New member
Teacher said:
Very sorry to disagree, Teacher, but this makes absolutely no sense whatsover. I am not an expert like Ethan Whiner, but I do enough pro recordings (as a session player) and have enough knowledge to know that this is not true. Ethan Whiner has written some excellent articles, trust him.
Paul881
Look Mom, I can play!
Sorry Teacher, I don't know who told u that, but it is absolute tosh. Like everything, it depends on what comparison gear you are talking about.
Outboard gear can sound just as thin as any computer tools. Especially in the wrong hands or poor choice of gear.
And all that stuff about rounding off, simply not true - unless you intend your computer to do that - 8 bit playback anyone?
You will need to come back with more evidence than that, I'm afraid.
Outboard gear can sound just as thin as any computer tools. Especially in the wrong hands or poor choice of gear.
And all that stuff about rounding off, simply not true - unless you intend your computer to do that - 8 bit playback anyone?
You will need to come back with more evidence than that, I'm afraid.
AlChuck
Well-known member
I'll make it a threesome -- no sense, tosh, ond horsepuckey.
nave
Cave Relic
Bottom line is there is enough software out there to go with out a hardware mixer,,,,, It becomes a matter of personal preference and I for one think that there are alot of analog folks who are just holding on to their old analog ways for their dear life.......
These are the people that tell you .......you NEED to have a tube compressor, you NEED to have a tube pre-amp, you NEED to have a stand alone mixer.....
Nonsense, the magic of digital is that a sound wave can now be reduced to a strand of numbers and that the effects(tube warmness etc) of all of the equipment just mentioned above can be translated into numbers hence altering the quality of the wave to emulate all of the above via plugins......
A stand alone mixer has it's advantages....(.ie you have two hands whereas with a mouse you can only adjust one thing at a time ) But it is no longer a neccessity.....
I would definately go with the Break out box idea first!
-nave
-nave
These are the people that tell you .......you NEED to have a tube compressor, you NEED to have a tube pre-amp, you NEED to have a stand alone mixer.....
Nonsense, the magic of digital is that a sound wave can now be reduced to a strand of numbers and that the effects(tube warmness etc) of all of the equipment just mentioned above can be translated into numbers hence altering the quality of the wave to emulate all of the above via plugins......
A stand alone mixer has it's advantages....(.ie you have two hands whereas with a mouse you can only adjust one thing at a time ) But it is no longer a neccessity.....
I would definately go with the Break out box idea first!
-nave
-nave
Teacher
New member
http://www.prosoundweb.com/recpit/
post ur views over their for some pros how have experience with everything from high end digital to low end and high end out board to low end outboard....i used to lied to myself too,
post ur views over their for some pros how have experience with everything from high end digital to low end and high end out board to low end outboard....i used to lied to myself too,
A
A1MixMan
New member
isn't most outboard gear these days just a dedicated computer?
Paul881
Look Mom, I can play!
Teacher, A1MixerMan has a good point. What is the difference between an algorithm in an outboard pice of kit and an algorithm in a pc?
The only point that can be made is that there is good gear and bad gear, not ALL digital recording is a failure because of "sucky top and bottoms". That arguement just don't stand up.
One thing I will accept, as a guitarist for more years than I care to mention, is that a tube amp will always sound tonely sweeter & warmer than a digital one, and big cabinets always sound more exciting than small ones. Especially when well cranked and warmed up for about an hour.
(<--Picture of me and my band on stage many years ago with Marshall stacks)
But Outboard vs Inboard, there is no argument to answer.IMHO.
The only point that can be made is that there is good gear and bad gear, not ALL digital recording is a failure because of "sucky top and bottoms". That arguement just don't stand up.
One thing I will accept, as a guitarist for more years than I care to mention, is that a tube amp will always sound tonely sweeter & warmer than a digital one, and big cabinets always sound more exciting than small ones. Especially when well cranked and warmed up for about an hour.
(<--Picture of me and my band on stage many years ago with Marshall stacks)But Outboard vs Inboard, there is no argument to answer.IMHO.
Teacher
New member
I have no personal experience but someone at the website at the mentioned above did a test transfering files from Radar 24..a digital HD recorder(i think...i know its digital) to pro tools and said they heard a significant degradation in the sound when transferred back to radar...
i ain't say digital recording i said COMPUTER digital recording...yes most of todays outboard mixer control software but guess what most of today outboard digital gear SUCKS relative to the older analog gear...thats why old vintage mixers and compressors go up and value and digital gear becomes obsolete
i'm not tryna sound like hitler my way or the highway just expressing my experience and other so called "professionals" at prosoundweb...i personal love computer recording for the fact u can see everything but in my studio the computer will be nothing but a dumby tape deck while i mix thru outboard mixer to a 2"(if i had money to afford one) and a fatso(if i could afford that too) before it goes in the comp to get edited....ahhhh a guy can dream...for now i have to settle for plug-ins and sending it thru mackie...and work feverishly to get a slim sound instead of a thin one haha
i ain't say digital recording i said COMPUTER digital recording...yes most of todays outboard mixer control software but guess what most of today outboard digital gear SUCKS relative to the older analog gear...thats why old vintage mixers and compressors go up and value and digital gear becomes obsolete
i'm not tryna sound like hitler my way or the highway just expressing my experience and other so called "professionals" at prosoundweb...i personal love computer recording for the fact u can see everything but in my studio the computer will be nothing but a dumby tape deck while i mix thru outboard mixer to a 2"(if i had money to afford one) and a fatso(if i could afford that too) before it goes in the comp to get edited....ahhhh a guy can dream...for now i have to settle for plug-ins and sending it thru mackie...and work feverishly to get a slim sound instead of a thin one haha
Ethan Winer
Acoustics Expert
T,
> i ain't say digital recording i said COMPUTER digital recording <
And that's exactly what makes your point so silly. Do you not understand that all digital gear uses a computer? What do you think is inside an outboard digital effects box?
> I have no personal experience but someone at the website at the mentioned above did a test transfering files from Radar 24 <
And that, my friend, is the crux of the matter. You have no personal experience, and you're accepting as fact what someone else said. I didn't see that post, but maybe it was from one of several people there who earn a living selling this stuff?
--Ethan
> i ain't say digital recording i said COMPUTER digital recording <
And that's exactly what makes your point so silly. Do you not understand that all digital gear uses a computer? What do you think is inside an outboard digital effects box?
> I have no personal experience but someone at the website at the mentioned above did a test transfering files from Radar 24 <
And that, my friend, is the crux of the matter. You have no personal experience, and you're accepting as fact what someone else said. I didn't see that post, but maybe it was from one of several people there who earn a living selling this stuff?
--Ethan