Who knows Speakers! YaY!

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capnkid

capnkid

Optimus Prime
If you have a tube amp that is 100 watts, what kind of speakers do you need for a 412 cab? I see people using vintage 30's but they are only 60 watts.

A few questions.

1. What is RMS/Peak?
2. What is Response? an example is 80-5k.
3. How big a part of the sound is coil diameter? Why?
4. Does magnet size matter. Why?

My amp is switchable 25-50-100 watts.

The thing really farts on 25watt setting, but there is a 100 watt carvin speaker in there.
Would it tighten up if I put a Greenback or anniversary gh30 in there and just use that speaker for the 25 watt settin and get a 412 for the 100 watt setting?

Lots of questions, take your time.
 
You know, that thing where sound come out of your amp.
 
rms/peak is the power rating of the speaker. rms = continuous level, peak = instantaneous level.

repsonse = frequency response. tells you what frequency range the speaker can put out.

3. no idea how the coil size effects sound.

magnet size = every part of a speaker matters. bigger magnet does not mean better guitar tone.

what kind of speakers do you need for a guitar cabinet? the one's that sound good to you of course. many flavors to choose from.

speaker farts out - sounds like you need at least a 2x12 cab or an attenuator. 25 watts is a bunch of tube juice.

i've farted out a 4x12 loaded with vintage 30's using a 100 watt head on 5. vin30 is a tighter speaker than the other 2 mentioned.

does the speaker in the amp sound good at less than 'farting' volume?
 
the human ear hears between 20Hz - 20kHz

just throwing that out there .. i know frequencies always confused me before but then when i learned that it cleared some things up. For example 20hz is REALLY LOW bearly audible to us but it can be heard. so a solid bass sound for us is around 40-50hz
 
capnkid said:
If you have a tube amp that is 100 watts, what kind of speakers do you need for a 412 cab? I see people using vintage 30's but they are only 60 watts.

A few questions.

1. What is RMS
1a. Peak?
2. What is Response? an example is 80-5k.
3. How big a part of the sound is coil diameter?
3a. Why?
4. Does magnet size matter.
4a. Why?

Lots of questions, take your time.
Click to expand...

Lots of fuckin' questions, indeed.

In a 4x12 cabinet, the load is distributed equally among all four speakers, so each speaker only has to handle about 25 watts out of the total 100 watts available.

1. "RMS" is the average power output of a steady state signal, like a single, sustained note. It's about 70% of the actual voltage.

1a. "Peak power" is the amp's ability to put out very brief bursts of power when needed. Most amp manufacturers usually put it at around double the RMS power, but some manufacturers go crazy with insane peak ratings.

2. "Response" is the frequency range the speaker can put out reasonable signal levels in. In the case of the 80Hz to 5 KHz you mentioned, that's the response of the speaker, from the lowest note it can handle (about the low E on a standard guitar) to the highest note (the overtones of the highest note on the fretboard).

3. The voice coil diameter is part of the spec of the motor that drives the speaker cone. Other parts of that spec are the magnet size, coil length, gap length, and flux density. A larger diameter coil (assuming everything else stays exactly the same) will help prevent cone breakup in thin walled speaker cones.

3a. For the reasons just mentioned; it's a factor, but it's just one factor in the speaker's overall sound.

4. Magnet size does matter, but only with regards to how much magnetic flux is in the gap of the speaker (where the voice coil sits). With a wide gap, you may need a lot bigger magnet than you would need with a narrower gap speaker.

4a. Magnet size translates to greater efficiency, assuming everything else stays the same.
 
TravisinFlorida said:
rms/peak is the power rating of the speaker. rms = continuous level, peak = instantaneous level.

repsonse = frequency response. tells you what frequency range the speaker can put out.

3. no idea how the coil size effects sound.

magnet size = every part of a speaker matters. bigger magnet does not mean better guitar tone.

what kind of speakers do you need for a guitar cabinet? the one's that sound good to you of course. many flavors to choose from.

speaker farts out - sounds like you need at least a 2x12 cab or an attenuator. 25 watts is a bunch of tube juice.

i've farted out a 4x12 loaded with vintage 30's using a 100 watt head on 5. vin30 is a tighter speaker than the other 2 mentioned.

does the speaker in the amp sound good at less than 'farting' volume?
Click to expand...

I was messing around with the amp it some more today (The sounds are limitless, and good). It farts pretty good up until 5 on 25 watt setting. I put in on the 100 and it stops flapping, but I can't turn in up past 2 1/2 cause it's too loud. Read the link I posted, I guess I'll save up for a THD HotPlate.

Can an attenuator be made from parts more inexpensively? THD's are like $250.
 
capnkid said:
I was messing around with the amp it some more today (The sounds are limitless, and good). It farts pretty good up until 5 on 25 watt setting. I put in on the 100 and it stops flapping, but I can't turn in up past 2 1/2 cause it's too loud. Read the link I posted, I guess I'll save up for a THD HotPlate.

Can an attenuator be made from parts more inexpensively? THD's are like $250.
Click to expand...

go to the ax84 or 18watt forum for some good ideas on attenuation for less money. you might even find someone that will build you something.

btw, i've never seen anything like that page, amptone.com. lot's of reading for me. :)
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Lots of fuckin' questions, indeed.

In a 4x12 cabinet, the load is distributed equally among all four speakers, so each speaker only has to handle about 25 watts out of the total 100 watts available.

1. "RMS" is the average power output of a steady state signal, like a single, sustained note. It's about 70% of the actual voltage.

1a. "Peak power" is the amp's ability to put out very brief bursts of power when needed. Most amp manufacturers usually put it at around double the RMS power, but some manufacturers go crazy with insane peak ratings.

2. "Response" is the frequency range the speaker can put out reasonable signal levels in. In the case of the 80Hz to 5 KHz you mentioned, that's the response of the speaker, from the lowest note it can handle (about the low E on a standard guitar) to the highest note (the overtones of the highest note on the fretboard).

3. The voice coil diameter is part of the spec of the motor that drives the speaker cone. Other parts of that spec are the magnet size, coil length, gap length, and flux density. A larger diameter coil (assuming everything else stays exactly the same) will help prevent cone breakup in thin walled speaker cones.

3a. For the reasons just mentioned; it's a factor, but it's just one factor in the speaker's overall sound.

4. Magnet size does matter, but only with regards to how much magnetic flux is in the gap of the speaker (where the voice coil sits). With a wide gap, you may need a lot bigger magnet than you would need with a narrower gap speaker.

4a. Magnet size translates to greater efficiency, assuming everything else stays the same.
Click to expand...

Thanx for taking the time.

So, if there are two speakers with the exact same ratings. coil diameter, magnet size etc. Why does one sound better than the other? Do you think people are to hung up on the celestion name?
 
TravisinFlorida said:
go to the ax84 or 18watt forum for some good ideas on attenuation for less money. you might even find someone that will build you something.

btw, i've never seen anything like that page, amptone.com. lot's of reading for me. :)
Click to expand...

It was a good read. I'm gonna try the steps he mentioned with an eq and attenuator when I get the cash. The carvin 112 has a tone stack and a seperate eq. The way he puts it, it sounds like I'm ahead of the game a little. The amp does sound good.
 
capnkid said:
Thanx for taking the time.

So, if there are two speakers with the exact same ratings. coil diameter, magnet size etc. Why does one sound better than the other? Do you think people are to hung up on the celestion name?
Click to expand...

i'm not harvey but yes, i do think people are too hung up on the celestion name. what really matters with guitar speakers is how they sound. there are plenty of good ones and bad ones and everything in between. even more confusing: the bad ones might sound good with another amp and the good ones might sound bad with another amp. it's all a bunch of voodoo. :D
 
capnkid said:
Thanx for taking the time.

So, if there are two speakers with the exact same ratings. coil diameter, magnet size etc. Why does one sound better than the other? Do you think people are to hung up on the celestion name?
Click to expand...
There are other factors, like cone material, surround type, suspension, gap width, flux density, coil material, and several unlisted factors, that can make speakers (with the same "general" specs) sound very different.

I'm not sure about the "voodoo" part, but speaker design is partly an art.
 
capnkid said:
It was a good read. I'm gonna try the steps he mentioned with an eq and attenuator when I get the cash. The carvin 112 has a tone stack and a seperate eq. The way he puts it, it sounds like I'm ahead of the game a little. The amp does sound good.
Click to expand...

another good read is 'the guitar amp handbook' by dave hunter, if you're into that kind of thing. highly recommended to anyone that's working on their guitar sound.
 
Incidentally, while most people here think of me as some kind of "mic guru", most of my life has been spent in designing PA and musical instrument speakers for various companies, most notably JBL, Acoustic Control, Delta, Ross, Charvel, and Jackson.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Incidentally, while most people here think of me as some kind of "mic guru", most of my life has been spent in designing PA and musical instrument speakers for various companies, most notably JBL, Acoustic Control, Delta, Ross, Charvel, and Jackson.
Click to expand...

are there any current production guitar speakers that you think are exceptional?
 
TravisinFlorida said:
from that page " If you are going to dime a 50 watt amp, you should choose a 100 watt attenuator".

just making sure that you catch that capnkid.
Click to expand...


The THD is rated for 185 watts. He doesn't say much about the Marshall powerbrake, puts it down a little though.
 
TravisinFlorida said:
are there any current production guitar speakers that you think are exceptional?
Click to expand...
I haven't heard a lot of the newer crop of speakers, but I respect Ted Weber stuff a lot, the guys over at Eminence are pretty damn sharp, and I suspect the Chinese will eventually become a strong presence in this field.
 
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