Where should a bass guitar be panned???

  • Thread starter Thread starter LoudScaryGuitar
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MISTERQCUE said:


HUH!!?? What jazz have you been listening to?

Listen to Stan Clarke, Will Lee, Miroslav, Milt Hinton et al.
In Be-bop, where there's usually a trio or quartet (Miles,Carter,Tatum etc) where an acoustic is used, it's usually doubled mic'd with the low-end directed dead-center and the upper-register is panned slightly off center in conjunction with
harmonic portions of piano.

...most bass in jazz recordings have been placed center with the exceptions of earlier recordings by Blakey,Hines,Lee,Monk,Coltrane,Smith, etc who's ensembles were usually recorded via different means.
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Brother Q:

I'm sure you are a fine bass player and musician, but I will admit I'm a bit confused by your sense of jazz history.

First, your use of the term bebop: Yes, Miles played bebop when he worked as a sideman with Charlie Parker. Art Tatum, though one of the greatest pianists in history, was not a bebop player, by anyone's definition. I'm assuming by Carter you mean Ron (as opposed to Benny?) but neither Ron nor Benny are considered bebop musicians.

Secondly, the classic bebop ensemble (the overwhelming bulk of which was recorded from 1944 to 1954) was five or six musicians, depending on if they used a guitar (or occasionally vibes). The front line typically had two horns. Which is why Miles Davis got so much work with Charlie Parker. When Parker was not paired with Miles, he used such other great players as Fats Navarro, Dizzy Gillespie, Red Rodney, Kenny Dorham, etc. And although you could point to piano trios of Bud Powell, (and Thelonious Monk - of whom it could be argued was "his own" style of player, not a bebop one) only a tiny percentage of bebop recordings were done by trios or quartets. And, of course, all the original bebop recordings (to say nothing of even earlier records by Tatum, Hines, et al) were MONO!!!

Thirdly, this method you describe of mic'ing the "upper and lower" registers of the acoustic bass... (aside from the issue that these were actually MONO recordings) well, on piano it's obvious how you would do that, but just how would one go about doing that on a bass? And how many recordings used this interesting method - do you have any specific engineers or records who used this panning you refer to? I make no claims to knowing anywhere near everything, but it sounds pretty difficult to isolate the high and low frequencies of an acoustic bass, unless you do it with filters in the mix, and I've never heard of this panning scheme. I'm eager to be educated, however.

Fourthly, in your statement "earlier recordings by Blakey,Hines,Lee,Monk,Coltrane,Smith, etc who's ensembles were usually recorded via different means..." you certainly cover a lot of historical ground here. An early recording by Fatha Hines would be at least thirty years earlier than an early Coltrane recording. What do you perceive that these widely seperated recordings have in common? Who is Lee? (Lee Morgan?) Who is Smith? (Bessie Smith?, Jimmy Smith?, Stuff Smith?, Fresh Prince?) I'm not being argumentative here - it just is not obvious to me who you are talking about. And could you please explain what are these different means of recording you are referring to?

Thanks for providing some interesting food for thought...
 
littledog said:
And, of course, all the original bebop recordings (to say nothing of even earlier records by Tatum, Hines, et al) were MONO!!!
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So that would be panned center, right?


More, in the vein of "there's more than one way to skin cat" (particularly when it comes to bass): there've been some pretty good rock records done with no bass at all. Sleater-Kinney's records leap to mind ... or the White Stripes.
 
Okay, I tried off-centre bass panning with some mixes I've got - I think it sounds okay. Simple stuff - guitar on the left, voice in the middle, bass on the right.

I'm gonna make two speculations. First, off-centre bass panning works better with simple mixes like the one I described above, but more complex mixes with drums and bass and electric guitars and voice often sound better with the bass up the middle with the kick, because it anchors all that loud music. Second, when people say bass should go up the middle, the reason is because it sounds right to them when they put it there, and that's largely because that's where they're used to hearing it because so many others do it that way.

It's kinda like: I always used to put salt on my fried eggs until I came to Asia, because that's what you always do with fried eggs where I come from. But nowadays I put soya sauce on my fried eggs. They taste better that way.

Same with bass. It's better with soya sauce... :D
 
High!

Though not being an audio, but a stupid systems engineer, I heard an explanation that has NOTHING to do with taste but seems VERY logical...

Bass and kick drum should be panned center for a combination of reasons:

1) The low freqs carry most energy

2) The centered sound can be played louder as there are TWO amps. So you'll have +6dB without clipping

3) The low frequencies are VERY difficult to recognize the placement.

So it seems quite obvious to pan these instruments center as they prolly are the bassiest instruments... If you MUST pan them, I'd try to split them, leave the low end dead center and the higher freqs panned. BTW if you can recognize rock and jazz bass pans, it may be caused by the fact that rock bass has a lot around 400-650 Hz and and acoustic bass consists of almost only harmonics and no fundamentals...

Very curious, if someone has ever tried my 'splitted' panning -- I have not and could imagine some phase issues (alas there are no ideal bandpasses :()

:D

aXel
 
volltreffer said:
High!

Though not being an audio, but a stupid systems engineer, I heard an explanation that has NOTHING to do with taste but seems VERY logical...

Bass and kick drum should be panned center for a combination of reasons:

1) The low freqs carry most energy

2) The centered sound can be played louder as there are TWO amps. So you'll have +6dB without clipping

3) The low frequencies are VERY difficult to recognize the placement.

So it seems quite obvious to pan these instruments center as they prolly are the bassiest instruments... If you MUST pan them, I'd try to split them, leave the low end dead center and the higher freqs panned. BTW if you can recognize rock and jazz bass pans, it may be caused by the fact that rock bass has a lot around 400-650 Hz and and acoustic bass consists of almost only harmonics and no fundamentals...

Very curious, if someone has ever tried my 'splitted' panning -- I have not and could imagine some phase issues (alas there are no ideal bandpasses :()

:D

aXel
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I`m pretty sure the dudes that mixed the Dregs both in studio and live have explored the idea, at least my ears reflect that. As well as some of the latest Stanley Clark stuff.
 
After invisibly swimming in this tank for some time, this thread caused me to register.

I think the truth is hidden in many of the posts...

Yes, low frequencies are less directional.

Yes, bass guitars generate harmonics which are more directional than the fundamental.

Yes, you should pan the bass center in live sound reinforcement.

Yes, even with the bass fed into the PA (in smaller venues) you can hear more bass on the side of the stage with the bass rig.

Yes, it is increasingly more common to mix the bass right down the middle.

Yes, many great recordings have been made that are NOT panned dead center (including rock bands like Van Halen).

Yes, if you pan the bass up the middle, you will get a better "punch" since two amps get to deliver the power-hungry low end. (I don't know about +6dB, though. It's been over 15 years since I went to audio engineering school... I seem to remember if you double the power, you get a 3dB increase in spl)

Yes, if you leave the low end dead center... and pan the high end... you will achieve spatial placement without sacrificing the aforementioned "punch".

And last, but not least...

Yes, if we all start to follow the "so-called" rules... we will never experience anything new.

My advice?

Experiment. Use what sounds good. Damn the critics.
 
Doug Quance said:
My advice?

Experiment. Use what sounds good. Damn the critics.
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You needn't have registered just to say that -- I already said that near the top of the thread!!! ;)

:D :D


PS - Welcome aboard anyways....
A tip: don't feed the bears and you won't get hurt! :)
 
Thanks for the welcome!

I don't usually feed bears.

I do, however, enjoy watching a good bear tear into a picnic basket. Other people's picnic baskets, that is.
 
Jack Hammer said:
You do not HEAR it from one side but from everywhere, sort of. Bass is an omnipresent sound particularly in modern popular music forms.
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If this was true, then what is this thread all about ?
If you can't hear the difference, you might as well pan it hard left or right and it'll still sound center to you.
 
a ton of zeppelins stuff has the bass panned hard, but mr. page is such a genious that it sounds amazing

jon
 
I don't recall EVER hearing hard bass panning on a ZEP album....

What songs are you referring to, specifically?
 
Okay, I've heard different approaches to bass panning in this thread, and I've tentatively drawn my own conclusions based on what was said and on my own experience, but we haven't had any real examples so far, so here's a simple one for youse:

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1075&alid=-1

You will notice where the bass is panned. So - does it offend anybody particularly?
 
I have found..

I found that for my personal stuff..I prefer to put the bass a hair (about 5% left or right). I only will pan the bass if I have a very "guitar busy" recording. This goes against conventional wisdom but I found it gives my guitar a bit more breathing room.
 
That reminds me....................

Another thing I forgot to mention is..........


There are also many here who record to small format mediums....4 tracks, etc. In these cases it is actually ADVISABLE to pan the bass out some to make room for other things in the mix as well as excite an otherwise mono mix. I have done this a million times in my 4 tracker days....even panning a mono overhead away from a center bass drum in an attempt to "feel" like stereo drums.

Here are some examples from the Tape Op book for getting the most out of 4 track recording:

Drums: 11 O clock
Bass and guitar: 1 O Clock
Vocal and Guit Solo: 10 O Clock
Backing Vox and Perc: 2 O Clock

Yet another:

Drums and Bass: 11 O Clock
G1 and Back Vox: 9 O Clock
G2 and Perc: 3 O Clock
Vocal And G Solo: 1 o Clock

Yet another:

Drums: 11 O Clock
Bass and G1: 9 O Clock
Keys And G2: 3 O Clock
Vox and Perc: 1 O Clock


My own simple example for those that really only record 4 tracks with nothing fancy:

Drums: 11 O Clock
Bass: 1 or 2 Clock
Guitar: 10 O clock
Vox: 2 Oclock

I found these example to be helpful in limited space situations. YMMV


heylow
 
imalion said:
ALWAYS keep the Bass Centered.
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Because........hmmmmmm.....



Man I hate when people break down this kind of thing into stupid hard and fast rules.

I have a better rule:

ALWAYS do what you see fit to present a song in the way you feel it should be presented.

One more:

NEVER trust people who say ALWAYS. It shows lack of originality both in thought and in practice.


I wonder where a guy like Steve Albini would be today if he asked questions here as a newbie.....rules are for suckers.


The inflammatory,

heylow
 
I've got question about the 1 o'clock 2 o'clock thing for describing panning positions. 3 o'clock... is that hard right?
 
dobro said:
I've got question about the 1 o'clock 2 o'clock thing for describing panning positions. 3 o'clock... is that hard right?
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My understanding (for what it's worth) is that "clock positions" describe the actual position of the mark on the pan pot. Typical pots go from somewhere around 6:30 or 7:00 o'clock (hard left) around to 5:00 or 5:30 (hard right). 3:00 would be a few notches away from hard right.

Of course, not all mixers use idential pan pots ... so there's an elements of approximation to all of this.
 
Firstly,

No 3 O Clock would not be HARD right yet. All the way over is hard. At 3, you'l notice if you solo that the signal is still in both speakers somwhat.


SJ brings up a good point though. I always go by actual clock position but of course in reality, the pot does not cover the whole clock. I thik it still goes by clock position....of course the ears should be the ultimate factor in anything.


heylow
 
Oh wait.............

Dobro....are you asking if the idea is that the pan pot goes from 9 to 3? I think I understand the question now.....doh! (Sort of like, at 5 O Clock, you're in surround sound, right?)

I dont think so...I have always seen and heard it talked about as real clock positions, regardless of the pots shortcomings.



heylow
 
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