When mastering...

[Cloneboy Studio]

I'm still waiting for you guys to mention a non-thin guitar tone. But let me assume anything processed a la Vai, Satriani, Batten, Beach, etc should sounds very thin right?

All of those 'shred d00dz' have *VERY* thin guitar tones. They don't even sound real to me... sounds like some synth-guitar. I don't like guitarists that hide behind a lot of fancy effects.

The truth is you've created a live sound that is appealing to you and sounds "thick" when you're in front of the cabinet playing at probably high volume levels.

Chances are when recorded it wouldn't translate well and would end up thin on record unless you dropped some processing and got a more pure signal.
That being said, calling Eventide and TC Electronic gear "overpriced" is kind of funny because they are both companies that are benchmarks in effects quality--especially ADC/DAC converters.

The fact that you seem unfamiliar with converter quality is a bit disconcerting. A well-designed 16 bit converter will CRUSH a cheap 24 bit converter for sound quality, dynamics, transparency and so on.

But, we're only professional recording engineers who've had to deal with this kind of thing dozens of times before... what the hell do we know?

Maybe you have an .mp3 showcasing this ripping, fat tone using your rig that you can let us hear. I'd be interested.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

That sounds nice on paper, but you're talking about two totally different things, and that was not the point at all. We were talking about preserving the analog tube signal from the pre-amp.

To digitally reproduce an analog signal as closely as possible you would need the highest bit and sampling rate as possible "in theory". Today's common mFx is 24bit 48-96kHz. But you know this already. BTW, I guess your studio uses all 16bit 44.1 kHz effects, digital recorders, consoles, A/D units, etc... yeah, right.

It's the SAME thing... a converter is a converter, regardless of where it is in the chain... and if you're telling me you can hear a difference between a signal converted (by equal converters) at 16/44 vs 18/48, then I'm telling you you're full of shit....... if there's a difference, it's because the converters you're comparing to suck. Those specs are too close together to be audibly different, but you would see the difference on a scope.

 

[gusfmm]

All of those 'shred d00dz' have *VERY* thin guitar tones. They don't even sound real to me... sounds like some synth-guitar. I don't like guitarists that hide behind a lot of fancy effects.

You almost made me drop the cup of coffee over the keyboard. Vai hiding behind effects??????

The truth is you've created a live sound that is appealing to you and sounds "thick" when you're in front of the cabinet playing at probably high volume levels.

Right. And complementing that, my philosophy is to understand others' points of view, not bragging about myself. My playing speaks wordlessly, and I don't have to demonstrate anything to anyone because in the end, it all wraps up being a matter of taste and personal preference. You like Soundgarden, I respect that. (but ... ...)

That being said, calling Eventide and TC Electronic gear "overpriced" is kind of funny because they are both companies that are benchmarks in effects quality--especially ADC/DAC converters.
The fact that you seem unfamiliar with converter quality is a bit disconcerting. A well-designed 16 bit converter will CRUSH a cheap 24 bit converter for sound quality, dynamics, transparency and so on.
blah... blah...

Whooooa again. This is for sure a very empirical comment. A matter of perception. I'll let your experience feed your beliefs though.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Whooooa again. This is for sure a very empirical comment. A matter of perception. I'll let your experience feed your beliefs though.

Cloneboy Studio is 100% correct... a poor quality 24-bit converter is EASILY outperformed by a high-quality 16-bit converter.

Apparently, you're the one a short on experience, at least as far as recording technology goes....

 

[gusfmm]

Cloneboy Studio is 100% correct... a poor quality 24-bit converter is EASILY outperformed by a high-quality 16-bit converter.

Apparently, you're the one a short on experience, at least as far as recording technology goes....

Yes grand knowledge master, you might be right, but you've missed the point over and over every single time you've written. Better spend a second reading before you post lame comments.

Make facts support your words, 'cause empiricism is good to a certain extend, but not nearly enough to justify you to be called engineer.

God bless ya'.

 

[gusfmm]

and if you're telling me you can hear a difference between a signal converted (by equal converters) at 16/44 vs 18/48,

Take a moment to read, you're making that up or going nuts.

then I'm telling you you're full of shit.......

Typical of you.

 

[Farview]

I stand by what I said. I am trying to educate the world one shred-demon/ whammy-tap-master at a time. It takes so long to do because of the stubornness (or superstition) of most of these players. They use it like a security blanket. I don't know why all these guys think they need all that grease on their sound, If the sound is too processed, smashed and dripping wet, it hides what you are playing and sounds less incredible than it should. I normally have to prove it buy taking the guitar from their hands and start sweep picking. I was never into it and I have been concentraiting on playing drums for the last 8 years. If I can sound as good as they do, there is too much effect going on.

 

[gtrman_66]

Cloneboy Studio is 100% correct... a poor quality 24-bit converter is EASILY outperformed by a high-quality 16-bit converter.

I'll second, er...third that. I bought a cheap 24 bit converter set a while back to feed one of my monitor chains. It didn't take long to figure out the thing sounded like my ass on the crapper after a night of drinking cheap draft beer. I was back to using a pair of converters in one of my old blackface adats in nothing flat.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Yes grand knowledge master, you might be right, but you've missed the point over and over every single time you've written. Better spend a second reading before you post lame comments.

Sigh.

Do you realize how uninformed you sound? Bruce (Blue Bear) has forgotten more about music than you'll ever know... and everyone that reads this thread KNOWS IT.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

You almost made me drop the cup of coffee over the keyboard. Vai hiding behind effects??????

I wasn't talking about him, I was talking about YOU.

I.e.--"I can't sound like someone else unless I have all these effects!"

Way to set your musical goals!!!

Anyways, Vai DOES hide behind effects... when he's not hiding behind overplaying and technical excess. I admire the man's dedication but it seems a waste because his music is so... unlistenable (except to guitar wankers). I just can't help thinking all that practice to achieve... NOTHING.

At least Yngwie had good tone and melody, even if the songs were crap and the lyrics laughable.

 

[gusfmm]

Sigh.

Do you realize how uninformed you sound? Bruce (Blue Bear) has forgotten more about music than you'll ever know... and everyone that reads this thread KNOWS IT.

Again, my respect to the grand master of knowledge. But I'm getting really bored of you guys bragging around like demons. Please stop it and show some respect for the rest, would you?

 

[gusfmm]

I wasn't talking about him, I was talking about YOU.

I.e.--"I can't sound like someone else unless I have all these effects!"

Way to set your musical goals!!!

Anyways, Vai DOES hide behind effects... when he's not hiding behind overplaying and technical excess. I admire the man's dedication but it seems a waste because his music is so... unlistenable (except to guitar wankers). I just can't help thinking all that practice to achieve... NOTHING.

At least Yngwie had good tone and melody, even if the songs were crap and the lyrics laughable.

It is obvious why you are dedicated to sound and are not a musician, you just made it clear and well demonstrated. No understanding at all, whatsoever. Period. Do not worry, I won't bother in responding silly comments anymore.

God bless you too.

 

[gusfmm]

I stand by what I said. I am trying to educate the world one shred-demon/ whammy-tap-master at a time. It takes so long to do because of the stubornness (or superstition) of most of these players. They use it like a security blanket. I don't know why all these guys think they need all that grease on their sound, If the sound is too processed, smashed and dripping wet, it hides what you are playing and sounds less incredible than it should. I normally have to prove it buy taking the guitar from their hands and start sweep picking. I was never into it and I have been concentraiting on playing drums for the last 8 years. If I can sound as good as they do, there is too much effect going on.

Sounds fair Jason, at least someone is still interested in constructive comments and not in destructing. Idea taken and appreciated.

Cheers!

 

[ProgMetalShred]

Dude,

Do you have any clips available of this setup? I am running a similar rack at home with the Triaxis, GSP2101, BBE482, Mesa 20/20, but I have the Recto Vertical 2x12 instead of the 3/4 back jobbie. I'd love to hear anything you have laying around.

Oh yeah, also running and 1990 Ibanez S540LTD (stock) or Ibanez USRG30 with Tone Zone and PAF Pro pu's.

Thanks bro,
Jeff

Well, I guess you'd have to explain what "thin" and "over processed" means to you. Not even messing around with my tube multiFX and the BBE have I gotten any "thin" tone ever.

My rig:
- Ibanez Prestige guitar
- ART TCS tube compressor -> just to add some extra sustain
- Mesa Boogie Triaxis tube pre-amp
- Digitech GSP-2101 Limited Edition tube multiFX (18bit A/D/A)
- BBE 482
- Mesa Boogie 20/20 tube power amp
- Mesa Boogie 2x12 3/4 open back cab

How it sounds (or how I've made it sound like)? Listen to Pantera's Vulgar Display of Power, any song, but Cemetery Gates is a perfect example, although I play prog-metal, more a la Dream Theater. I can assure you pal, it does not sound outdated or thin at all, and it sounds just right with the BBE playing its role at the end of the pre-amp stage. At least it is perfect for studio & home recording, thus far.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

It is obvious why you are dedicated to sound and are not a musician, you just made it clear and well demonstrated. No understanding at all, whatsoever. Period. Do not worry, I won't bother in responding silly comments anymore.

That's funny because I can play 4 instruments, including classical piano--which is about 10 times more demanding than guitar. I know, because I can play guitar too, electrical AND classical flamenco.

I'm dedicated to sound because people like you need someone to edit their mistakes and trick them into actually having a good tone... which I gladly do at 50 dollars an hour.



Nice try at attempting to insult me, by the way.

 

[yorgo]

I wasn't talking about him, I was talking about YOU.

I.e.--"I can't sound like someone else unless I have all these effects!"

Way to set your musical goals!!!

Anyways, Vai DOES hide behind effects... when he's not hiding behind overplaying and technical excess. I admire the man's dedication but it seems a waste because his music is so... unlistenable (except to guitar wankers). I just can't help thinking all that practice to achieve... NOTHING.

At least Yngwie had good tone and melody, even if the songs were crap and the lyrics laughable.

Okay first off. I disagree about Vai. The man a composer not justa guitar wanker. I took my wife once to see him and she has been hooked ever since. She is not into guitar wanking.and about yngwie........nevermind

now I didn't mean for this to create such a backlash. I was looking for enhance but I can see I can't get it easy with the BBE for an overall mix. Apologies. I get the point.

 

[aljam]

Wow!

Hi there, new to the site! Very interesting slightly heated exchange. I did learn something however so I guess all this dialouge was not a complete waste. I like Vai, Malmsteen, DT & recording Engineers also! I am a tube amp guy & use minimal effects. I have a BBE 862 but haven't found alot of use for it other than running my vocalist through the PA for live stuff. I used it to record my Taylor Acoustic just before my Avalon M5 pre and it was kinda nice
a little artificial. Great site by the way, I could see that there are some interesting and experienced people here who are willing to help us "home recordist" types out and I think thats really cool! Carry on Brothers!