What's wrong with my rig?

[pc131]

Hi All,

My question is like theme says. I am not satisfied with the sound of guitar amp simulation that I can hear. I use Guitar Rig 3/Amplitube 2 and hi-gain, even crunch modelers sound harshy to me. I know it is all digital inside, but I read so much that you coped to achieve good sounds from GR3/AT2.

Here is my rig:

Guitar:
Ibanez Prestige 1570

Preamp:
Soundcraft Compact 4 Mixer

Soundcard:
M-Audio Delta 24/96 Audiophile

PC ---> Intel E2180, 2GB RAM, 250GB HDD

Speakers....... Stereo Genius Speakers 14W RMS (wooden box)

look at ---> w_w_w.techworld.co.nz/images/002/SP-HF1250X.jpg (remove _ between www)

These speakers are active (one of the spekers has amplifier), tall about 15 inches, weight some more that usual computer speakers.... off course they are not Mackie or Tannoy monitors.....

Guitar plugged into Mixer (DI-Input, 300k resistance), analog mixer connected with RCA cables to soundcard, soundcard equipped with ASIO 2.0 compatible M-audio driver (Cubase, Guitar Rig), soundcard output to speakers with RCA cables.

Here is how it is all connected (blue means input black output, letters to indicate signal flow direction):

look at ---->> img255.imageshack.us/img255/4923/myrigmg8.jpg

But my problem is (and I try to investigate is since long time) that the sound I am getting from Guitar Rig 3/Amplitube is not satysfying. Not mentioning hi-gain recto's. I do not expect to get sound of 2000$ Mesa head, but what I'm getting is harshy distortion, even the lighter one, it is not fat. My Ibanez has V8/S1/V7 pickups that are not the best, but better that INFs mounted on korean ones. I have analog preamp. M-audio makes good stuff. So maybe my speakers are the reason? Should I replace them with studio monitors? You always write about your setups, but what about speakers, monitors, cabs?

Or should I connect output of soundcard to mixer input and speakers monitors to mixer output of monitor section....

Any clues? Suggestions? I will appreciate.

Sorry if this post exceeds this topic move it, but I will renew it in other place to get some answers.

Regards,
Tom

 

[Waffleness]

tall about 15 inches

*insert generic pun here*

I would say your weak link is your monitors. Guitar Rig 3 is more than capable of producing an awesome sound, check out the rudolph song on the mp3 mixing clinic.

Your guitar should be going into a High Z input, which i assume you have on the compact mixer.

How does the guitar sound before you apply the Guitar Rig software? If its a nice clean and crisp signal, then the issue is with your guitar rig settings. If its already muddy and horrible, or very hot/cold, guitar rig wont make it sound any better.

 

[pc131]

Hi!


What yoy mean by:
*insert generic pun here*???

Thanks so much for response.

This is about my mixer:

Secondly, a wide variety of input sources are catered for on this simple 4-input mixer. These include microphone, line, and a special ''DI'' or ''Direct'' input for guitars and keyboards, plus stereo inputs for keyboards, CD/tape, or turntable (with RIAA equalisation). This DI input matches the input impedance of the mixer to the output impedance of the instrument, ensuring optimum professional-quality audio capture.
Soundcraft COMPACT 4 Mixer Specifications:

* PERFORMANCE OVERVIEW
* Frequency Response Mic/Line input to any output: 20Hz-20kHz, ±0.5dB
* THD+Noise Mic gain 30dB
* Mix out, fader max @ 1kHz: <0.007%

Input and Output Impedances
* Mic input: 2k
* Line input: 10k
* Hi-Z input: 300k
* Stereo input: 47k
* Outputs: 75
* Input and Output Levels
* Mic input max level: +16dBu
* Line input max level: +30dBu
* Stereo input max level: +20dBu
* Headphones (@ 200): 300mW
* Power (Average power consumption - quiescent)
* COMPACT 4: 8W

Is this 300k enough?

Honeslty without the GR3/AT3 VTS guitar doesn't sound crisp cristal... that's what I am afraid of. But could it be Ibanez RG1570? Or its stock pickups.... Damn this is japanese made axe. Or maybe the mixer gets in the line and colors tha signal badly. Because you're right if clean guitar withuot VST doesn't sound nicely then GR3/AT2 won't make magic out of it....

Today i record clean guitar and post it somewhere so yuou can hear that.

Any recommendations?

 

[Waffleness]

The pun comment was just me making a poor joke

If I were you I would play around with your mixer and soundcard settings. Its not a problem with your audio software or guitar rig 3, its a problem with getting your guitar into the system.

If I were you, I would disconnect the mixer from the PC to start with. Plug some headphones into the mixer and see what the guitar sounds like. If, when your use the High Z input on the desk, the guitar is coming out crisp, then your ok. If your guitar sounds bad on the desk, plugging it into the PC will only make it worse. In this case, maybe play with the EQ, or get a better guitar?

If its ok on the desk, try using the stereo output from the desk (not the RCA's) and put them into 2 Line in's from the maudio soundcard. Make sure the signal into the maudio isnt too loud or too quiet.

 

[pc131]

Hi Waffleness

I have messed up with my gear a little, and this is what I found.

My audio card has only unbalanced inputs, my mixer has balanced outputs, but I use unbalanced cables - the same as inputs on my sound card. Cable length is 1,8m. It is good thick cable. I also used the setup: balanced outputs at mixer ann unbalanced inputes at soundcard (using balanced<->unbalanced adapters at mixer) but honestly it didn't improve much.... if anything.

You say about swapping to stereo cables. I use 2 RCA cables which go into 2 RCA inputs of soundcard which in fact is stereo - and my sound card has only RCA inputs. I think you mean balanced cables (3,5") to use. Balanced cables have extra hot wire inside and shield (RCAs have 1 hot and shield) so one wire transmits signal and second transmits signal reversed. So if any interference happens onthe way, both wires get inteference but at the end the singals are summed (normal and reversed) so there is no interference in theory. RCA have 1 wire and shield, so they are more likely to get interference. But do you think this can colour the singal so muddy? I don't get any pops or cracks .

Indeed I get some hiss but when I don't touch metal part of my guitar. I do not have grounding in my apartment, and when I touch the strings the hum is gone. Anyway when i record I always hold the string so that is not a problem.

I recorded clean guitar without any VST in cubase, and played it after that (because playing while recording makes you hear your strings anyhow). I didn't touch mixer's onboard EQ (12 o'clock HI MID LOW).

And the result is not satysfying I would say.

Here I put my recording in 5 pickup positions
1) HB bridge Ibanez V8
2) SC Ibanez S1 + half of HB bridge Ibanez V8
3) SC Ibanes S1
4) SC Ibanez S1 + half of HB neck Ibanez V7
5) HB neck Ibanez V7

h_t_t_p://w_w_w.wrzuta.pl/audio/dmrnTuPJfI/clean_guitar

(just remove the underscores.... it is polish site but just press play in the flash player)

Well it means Cubase gets this and GR3/AT2 can't make heaven out of it. I don't know if there are some ways to tweak cubase for incoming signal, I doubt.

I googled for my mixer and I found its review on polish site (english translation also is there) and the person that review that device was using the same soundcard as I (M-Audio 24/96) and the same RCA unballanced cables, even longer (3 meters). Revies in English: h_t_t_p://wachmed.webpark.pl/compact4eng.htm

And the sound recorded but not from Ibanez but from Fender Stratocaster is like that:

h_t_t_p://w_w_w.wrzuta.pl/audio/l8aahfOFeU/git_elekt1 (again remove the underscores, polish site sorry, but just press play in flash player).

The difference is obvious. The sound is open and crispy. I know fender has 3 single coils. But maybe they are better quality.

I also connected headphones (AKG Studio K271 ~250$ in cost) h_t_t_p://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/AKG-K271-MKII-Headphones?sku=241831 and I fell like the sound is better there, although it is hard to predict, these are headphones. But like the muddyness is somehow gone especially on single coil and single coil mixed with halfs of humbuckers.

Any new ideas? I don't want to swap my guitar, which is realy nice to play (in terms of playability&feel in hand) it is anyhow better that chepaest Ibanezes, maybe stock pickups don;t shine, but swapping the, also costs, and still why headphones are much better than Cubase recording?

Any ideas? Will appreciate much.

Regards
Tom

 

[Tag]

Well, I think you've tracked down your problem, so you should be able to stop worrying about the rest. The strat sounds pretty good to me - clear and bright - and sounds to me like it would respond to amp simulation pretty well. (Tell me if you don't think so - I'm not listening on the best speakers.) If the tone from the strat sounds good, I think you can stop worrying about the rest of your setup - clearly you can get a good tone from your rig; just not from that guitar.

The Ibanez, on the other hand, sounds a lot less good. How do you have the volume and tone knobs set? Sounds like you have the tone all the way down? How does it sound through an actual amp? If you can't get a better tone than that regardless of how you set the settings on the guitar, I think you need to get a guitar shop to have a look at the guitar - maybe something in the electronics is faulty. Pickup replacement is something you should be thinking about to get the top 5% of performance out of your guitar, not to get a decent tone out of an $800 guitar. I've made good recordings with guitars worth about a fifth of that. You definitely SHOULD be able to get a good tone out of it.

There's nothing in your setup that SHOULD be stopping you making a good recording. If you can get a good sound from the strat but not from the Ibanez whatever you do then maybe you need to have the Ibanez looked at.

 

[Tag]

(deleted post)

 

[pc131]

Hi!

Now when I know that soundcard and what is later (DAW, VST, Speakers) is not faulty there I wonder: is it guitar? (shape, weight, wood), are these pickups? is this mixer? (example I provided rather excludes this...), is this connection? (unbalanced cables - example I provided rather excludes this...)

I have the tone knob all the way up I even can increase highs on EQ in mixer, but doexs't help much. although a little bit. No way I can get close to this Fender - reminding you that this fender was recorded on the same preamp (mixer), with the same cables, into the same soundcard.

Actually I do have guitar amplifier ----> THIS and what I realized now, the clean sound of single coils (or halfs of HBs + SC) realle sparkles. This amp is known for decent clean sound. Hi-Gain is a little harsh, but this is all solid state. What's more this amp has SEND-RETURN loop, so could I use it's preamplification and go out to soundcard then form SEND output? Seems interesting - if this amp can preamplify nicely the tone, co maybe it will nicely get into the PC. I have to get cable 3,5" JACK <------> 2xRCA. Anyway is this cable unbalaced or balanced then? Makes any difference?

Pickup replacement is something you should be thinking about to get the top 5% of performance out of your guitar, not to get a decent tone out of an $800 guitar.

By saying above you suggest, that placing DiMarzio pickups and some good single coil won't change sound dramatically? Actually my Ibanez costs about 800$ THIS. You suggested taht you recorded good tone from cheaper guitars?

You definitely SHOULD be able to get a good tone out of it.
Out of this Ibanez?

Hmmmm I wonder, how the shop can help me. I bought this guitar through internet and really I don't know how to talk to them.

Tom

 

[pc131]

I found interesting info about preamp HERE.

Remember? My DI Hi-Z Input in mixer has 300kOhms resistance - what's said in the link above is:

In order to accurately capture the tone of your pickups, it's important to use an input with an impedance that's optimized for guitar. Guitar inputs on many preamps, audio interfaces, and DI boxes have a 1 MΩ input impedance, which is the same value found on the inputs of classic tube amps from companies like Vox, Fender, and Marshall. If your input device has an impedance substantially below 1 MΩ, you may notice a rolling off of high end. Impedances above 1 MΩ can yield a brighter, more sparkly tone.

Can you translate in simplier words what means "rolling off of high end" here? I couldn't find the point.

What means 300kOhms compared to 1MOhm then? Can this mud the sound? So how the reviewer of my mixer recorded Fender so nicely? Better pickups at Fender?

=========================================================

I think I am getting closer now:

An electric guitar's output impedance depends on the pickup design, the settings of the volume and tone controls, and the frequency produced. When the volume knob is turned up (which is usually the case), the guitar's output impedance is typically 3 to 10 k• at low frequencies and 100 to 500 k• at 10 kHz. When the volume is down, the output impedance is more constant, but it still varies by a factor of ten from low to high frequencies.

In addition, guitars are very sensitive to the input impedance of an amp or DI box; the higher the input impedance, the better the frequency response. Typical guitar amps have an input impedance in the 1 megaohm (M•) range, which gives you a high-frequency response as high as 20 kHz with single-coil or humbucking pickups; low-impedance pickups provide even more high-frequency response.

 

[pc131]

Solved!!!

Hi all,

The problem is gone. Well one day I was instructed to get Soundcraft Compact 4 mixer with "good A-class preamps" and so on. These preamps are trash for my guitar.

I plugged my Ibanez into the input of Hughess & Kettner 30R. This amp has SEND-RETURN loop. So I connected SEND (Line-Out) with my soundcard.

Now the guitar shines on clean with SC. Damn!!! I can hear difference between all 5 pickup switch positions. On 300kOhm input only HB differed from SC but all was muddy. And on 300kOhm SC almost didn't differ between each other. Now Guitar Rig can produce hi-class sounds.

Later I will provide sample recorded on new setup, but believe me - I was blaming guitar, soundcard, cables, speakers not the guilty one.

Regards,
Tom

 

[SonicAlbert]

That's great you sorted it out. You did it correctly too, which a lot of people don't. i.e. you isolated different parts of your system to determine where the problem was.

The only thing I want to say is in regard to your comment about "good thick cable".

The thickness of the cable really has nothing to do with the quality of the cable. The thickness is just padding. So, if you need cable for performing live and you move around a lot, step on your cables, etc., then thick cable could be a good thing. But for studio work it's the quality of the wires and connectors, and how well they are put together that is all-important.

If you look behind the racks or mixer in a pro studio you'll see what is called "console cable", which is very skinny. It's basically just the wires and shield, no padding.

You also mention cable length, and use a short cable. Or rather, a cable that is only as long as you need it. Also a choice that is right on the money. Once you get your setup fine tuned you might try experimenting with different cables--that's a short enough length that you could try out a premium cable without breaking the bank.