whats the deal with "the marshall sound"

[edgarallanpoe]

I don't think spendinh $400.00 on a set of Mullards is good advice to someone who isn't happy with the tone they have already. Better tubes will take a good sounding amp, and make it that much better. It won't however usually make the difference betweeb liking or disliking the amp.

I didn't say that, in fact I said the opposite.

I recommended getting good power tubes and cranking the amp. The Seimens will set you back about $100 a quad and will be well worth it. Especially when you consider those cheap Chinese EL34s that are currently in the amp.

Better tubes make a *huge* difference in tone. The Seimens will have better defined low end better midrange and a less brittle/harsh top end.

 

[vangore]

I don't think spendinh $400.00 on a set of Mullards is good advice to someone who isn't happy with the tone they have already. Better tubes will take a good sounding amp, and make it that much better. It won't however usually make the difference betweeb liking or disliking the amp.

I have a few suggestions for the poster:

1) What do you mean by Heavey Tone - like a scooped mids Metallica sound? Basically the way to get a Heavy sound is to turn the mid control way down and turn up the treble and bass. (Note: this will sound good in the bedroom, but once you get playing with the band, you will need your mids in there to be heard)

2) What kind of amp are you coming from?? Solid State amps have a much higher degree of saturation and general fizziness which you can mistake for heaviness. Tube amps have a lot clearer sound that may not sound that heavy in your bedroom, but once you get in a full band situation, it cuts through perfectly sounding very heavey while the former SS amp would sound washed out.

3) If you're used to playing SS amps, it can take awhile to learn how to "push around" a tube amp. Your pick attack will naturally adjust for this the longer you play.

4) A good uncolored booster/OD might not be out of the question. Zakk Wylde uses one in front of his Marshall. He even has his own model made by MXR. The digitech bad monkey is a good sounding cheap od/booster pedal that will just give you the same sound as you original tone, but with more gain.

Anyway, to sum up: Let your pick attack adjust, wait until you get it in a full band playing before you judge the heaviness, and maybe try a booster.

Thanks for all the replies, we have tried it with a tele that has humbuckers, its sum new fangled contored bodt thing that doesnt look much like a tele at all. also just to clarify its my guitarists amp and we use it during practice all the time, the amp is a tsl jcm 2000 thing, im a drummer who pretends to be a guitarist sometimes and i do the studio thing so im not the most experienced with guitar amps.

Im looking for a balance but not too bassy tight distortion, gay as it may sound im want something like the spineshank sound (without all the gayness that comes with sounding anything like them)

 

[Mr. Moon]

Why would you expect me to know what I'm talking about?

Ron Jeremy- the king of the long thin weiner. That's what pedals will do to a Marshall- turn it from Johnny Wad to Ron Jeremy. the guy wants a big fat one, but a $50 distortion pedal will kill the tone and thin it out

It was a bad one, but I was in that kinda goofy mood- know wha'am sayin? Don't hold me to that one..

Oh, ok. That makes sense. I've never really checked out RJ's wiener, but I'll keep that in mind the next time I'm scouting around for some old-skool pr0n.



-mr moon

 

[nbffan]

Van, I too had the same problem when my got my JCM. I quickly learned the pickups in my guitar were one of the major souces of the problem. I upgraded to EMG pickups. That helped, but I was still looking for that deep-hard sound. So, I tried just about every pedal in the book and finally settled on the Digitech Metal Masters and I've been happy ever since.

You may want to test out a Genisis 3 guitar processor. It's got some pretty cool distortion sounds to choose from and there's a vast library of patchs to choose from.

 

[Mr. Moon]

Iv always heard that for the best heavy distorted guitar sound marshalls and mesa boogies were the be all and end all but having recently had a JCM 2000 in my studio i was very dissapointed with its sound, i just couldnt get a really heavy good sounding guitar tone, I ran a line 6 distortion, a big muff and a line 6 pod through it an addition to trying it with nothing and i couldnt see what the fuss is about.

My question is how to get that funeral for a friend type sound out of that bloody marshall,i will be using a tele or a strat and dont mind getting pedals.

Disclaimer: Iam not claiming that Marshall amps are overrated or horrible sounding merely that i am inexperienced and possibly looking for something i cant get with out much processing.

cheers all.

What kind of cab are you going through? I'd suggest trying out a Mesa Recto 4x12 like I do, it really helps bring out the low-end roar out of my Marshall DSL100!!

However, for recording, I use an old 4x10 Marshall and turn the gain *way down*, as it translates as a heavier sound when recording that way than it does if you have too much gain.

-mr moon

 

[IronFlippy]

I would respectfully disagree...and cite Gary Moore as a reference.

No question, though, that humfuckers would give you a thicker sound, but singles will give you the bite. Problem is, it is a bit dated.

I agree. The OP mentioned Funeral for a Friend as a band he would like to mimick the sound of, which is why I said "in that sense".

 

[HungPhat]

i have a JCM2000 TSL100 and i run it thru a mode four cab.
band guitar is a prs CE24 with JB and Jazz pickups.

make sure all deep,mid scoop, buttons arent pushed in...crank those mids and as said before dont rely on the preamp for distortion...set it low (i play metaal and have it on 4) and crank the volume


are you using the crunch channel or the lead channel?


get rid of the eL34 stock power tubes (svetlana's)
also an eq pedal in the fx loop does wonders but be cafeful not to scoop too much mid (i actually crank the mid to 3 oclock on the amp just tweak a little tiny out on the eq ...i forget which frequency)

and this rig with my other guitarists 5150 mk1 + mesa cab complement each other well (he uses esp ltd baritone ith emgs) for 2 completely diffrent rigs.

 

[Superhuman]

It doesnt have to be a hugely expensive Marshall to sound good. I have a Marshall 100DFX which I always used for practice and never considered for recording until an engineer set it up in a quiet room for me. The tone I got was amazing once the volume was cranked. I got excellent lead tone through a Jem with all settings tweaked between 1 and 2 o'clock with the gain at full. I've always got the best results with the gain at full, depends on the tone you want and the guitar you're using. I'd go with Mesa for rhythm though.

 

[magic man]

There's a cutting midrange tone to Marshalls that you either really like or can't work with. Now, I speak of the 800, of which I own and still record with. I set the preamp distortion as low as I can get away with and crank the master as high as I can get it without rattling the neighborhood. Of course, at least one 4x12 is hooked up also. Ah, never fails.

exactly. keep the pre-amp at 4 or 5, turn the master to at least 8 and then listen. i prefer humbuckers in my guitars (DM SuperDistortion in the bridge), but i have also heard great sounds from Tele's and Strats. also maybe something in front for extra premp boost, like a Tube Screamer, RAT, BigMuff, Boss OD

Marshall = loud. not a bedroom amp

 

[Mookie]

The mistake that a lot of people make with Marshalls is trying to use too much pre amp gain. The Pods and other pedals simply wont get you there. The secret to a Marshall is when it is cranked. What you hear on recordings...from Hendrix to Zakk Wylde...is not pre amp distortion, it comes from the power amp section. Also...the stock tubes in these are useless. Get some good glass and stand back. Unfortunately, this will set you back quite a bit more than a DOD pedal, but the enhanced tone will be well worth it. The mother of all EL34s is the Mullard. Forget the GT Mullard, it ain't the same, I have both so you can trust me on this. Unfortunately they will set you back about $400 for a NOS matching quad. A good alternative are the Seimens EL34s. Very well made with excellent harmonic detail, the Seimens offer terriffic bang for the buck. The heaviest of the heavies is Sabbath, and that sound was made by tuning down and cranking his Laneys.

I can get all kinda crazy silly heavy sounds from a 1970 Marshall Super Lead 100 loaded with NOS Mullards and I can guarantee you that I probably use about 1/2 of the pre-amp gain that you do. I rarely use that amp anymore...its just too damn loud. Nowadays I use a custom made 40 watt amp and crank the living shit outta it! LOL

One more thing...don't forget technique. If you don't have it, you will just be chocolate coating a turd.

Good luck with your tone search bro, and don't dismiss what I say. Turn the gain down a tad and cranck the power section. It will sound *very* different at first, but try to get used to it, the tone and feel is far superior to all of that fizzy pre amp gain with absolutely no ass end. The ass end comes from the big glass...not the little glass.

Dude you are right about buffing a turd. its still a turd no matter how hard you polish. I found Sylvania`s and an old Drake output transformer made the difference for me. Probably will have some difficulty finding the Tubes these days but there are some still around.

I have owned a lot of amps. Some late 60`s plexi amps to early 80`s JCM 800s. Boogies, 5150s If you want really thick saturated overdrive a single track of marshall rarely cuts it.You need at least 2 if not more. I have found that the best sound I ever got from a marshall head was using an old Roland Bolt 30 running the preamp out into a 71 50 watt super lead with a master volume mod on it. The choice of cab made a huge difference as well. I used a single JCM 800 series cab with Celestion g12m 70`s. The slant cab had slightly more top end to it than the straight cab. 25 watt Greens tend to break up much sooner and for me they get a little muddy. 30s tend to be about the same. As weird as it sounds I took that little combo and the head on the road with me in the 80`s and got the best universal tone of any amp I have tried but again purely based on my taste and playing style.

With Marshalls old and new loud is better. Isolate the cab in an insulated room or box and close mic off axis with a 57. Add the effects later off the board or DAW and you should do really well. An engineer taught me a great trick. If you are recording in a room and volume is not a problem, Walk around while playing and find the sweet spot for that cab. Put a 990 there and roll off some high end and it should sound pretty wide.

Nothing beats the old point to point wired heads IMO. The really interesting thing is that In the early 80`s There was an assembly tech at Marshall named "Dana" She or he would sign the inside of the amp chassi if she/he assembled the head. I have a/b`d these Dana heads against other Marshalls of the same era and to me the Dana`s sound thicker. Most of you will prolly say " He probably thinks he can hear grass grow" but I swear these heads sound better to me.



Best of luck y`all

peace


Mook

 

[6gun]

oh great....I have to pull my amp outta the closet and open her up to see if I've got a 'Dana'.

 

[rayc]

Actually get the guitarist to UPGRADE to a Marshall 100w Superbass MkII.
Play through that cranked for a great guitar tone - & I don't mean bass.

 

[Hard2Hear]

...and to further that...

Is the Marshall cranked? or it is somewhat low on the volume knob?

Here is your answer.

I Have a TSL100 I run through a JCM800 1960b cab with G12H's and the sweet tone really happens when you turn it UP. The true Marshall sound can not be achieved at low volumes. Its created through saturation of the power amp tubes, and for that you need to turn it up.


H2H

 

[billmcdonald]

stop using distortion pedals

 

[Rickson Gracie]

if you want to hear the marshall sound you should play through this...and DONT use pedals.

 

[magic man]

wow that's a killer rig ^^^

So I'm interested why some folks here are against distortion pedals. My take is if that's all your running through a cheap amp or whatever with a ton of gain its going to sound weak and contrived. But with a stripped down tube amp like the JCM800 I don't see the problem using the pedal as a premp boost. With only single channel to work with it's cool to be able to switch to a more overdriven, saturated sound by stomping a pedal, and then be able to back it off for cleaner parts. Helps with dynamics, IMO.

I play in a three-piece and use a Big Muff to thicken up the distortion for certain parts that need to sound fuller. Alot of people hate Muffs because of their dirty super-saturated sound, but coupled with the mids of an 800 it sounds awesome...I used to run my guitar direct into the amp and swore off any kind of pedals because I thought they were sucking the signal from my guitar. Plus I was like "This little green box with some chip inside is going to replace the natural tube distortion of a Marshall" but it actually serves the purpose of adding to, not replacing the sound... just my 2 cents.

 

[chadsxe]

Well in my experince....JCM2000 DSL100 through 1960 cab...using a LTD Viper 400 (EMG 81's)....

1. when I am in fromt of the rig playing at about 3 the thing sounds a little harsh and the low end is not so definec.....the more and more I back away from it the more and more it starts to cut through the rest of the band...which is nice....

2. I am currently recording this same rig with a band that is ala As I lay Dying....I have a 57 dead on, 57 angled to the right side of the speaker and a E609 angled to the left side of the speaker.....My settings are as follows.

The deep button and the mid-scoop button are not pushed in.....remeber when recording you want a huge amount of mids and little low end.....at least thats what most people hear in the room...but recorded it sounds great....anyways..I have the mid All the way up...yup 10...the bass and treb are floating around 6....the gain is about 6 and the pres is at 4......this will give you a tight accurate heavy sound....not so much the SpineShank FFAF soung but should give you a great starting point....

By the way those bands by no means use marshall heads.......this is not to say you can't get in the same general ball park with one....but if your looking for there sound then you are not using the correct equipment....

 

[amra]

If you are using a pedal as a preamp boost, then you are talking overdrive not distortion. Overdrive is usually some type of natural distortion of a singal by (over)amplification, and for the most part distortion is the SIMULATION of a distorted signal. Using an overdrive as a boost of your amps own natural tube distortion doesn't really hurt your tone, in moderation. The inherent tone is coming from your amp, you are just causing the signal to break sooner.

But if you are using a distortion pedal into a clean channel, then you are aren't really hearing your amps preamp distortion. It might as well be a crate amp, because you are just hearing your pedal's tone, not your amp's.

wow that's a killer rig ^^^

So I'm interested why some folks here are against distortion pedals. My take is if that's all your running through a cheap amp or whatever with a ton of gain its going to sound weak and contrived. But with a stripped down tube amp like the JCM800 I don't see the problem using the pedal as a premp boost. With only single channel to work with it's cool to be able to switch to a more overdriven, saturated sound by stomping a pedal, and then be able to back it off for cleaner parts. Helps with dynamics, IMO.

I play in a three-piece and use a Big Muff to thicken up the distortion for certain parts that need to sound fuller. Alot of people hate Muffs because of their dirty super-saturated sound, but coupled with the mids of an 800 it sounds awesome...I used to run my guitar direct into the amp and swore off any kind of pedals because I thought they were sucking the signal from my guitar. Plus I was like "This little green box with some chip inside is going to replace the natural tube distortion of a Marshall" but it actually serves the purpose of adding to, not replacing the sound... just my 2 cents.

 

[edgarallanpoe]

So I'm interested why some folks here are against distortion pedals. My take is if that's all your running through a cheap amp or whatever with a ton of gain its going to sound weak and contrived. But with a stripped down tube amp like the JCM800 I don't see the problem using the pedal as a premp boost. With only single channel to work with it's cool to be able to switch to a more overdriven, saturated sound by stomping a pedal, and then be able to back it off for cleaner parts. Helps with dynamics, IMO.

It depends on what you use the pedal for. If you are using the pedal for the increase in gain, it usually sounds thin and buzzy. If you are using the pedal to goose the front end of the pre-amp section, then you keep that tube sound and increase the tube compression and saturation. *That* is the way to use the pedal. Unfortunately, too many people use them as a distortion generator. I have yet to hear one used in that capacity and sound good. JMHO.

FWIW, I use two seperate boosters on my board. The first is a HBE Dos Mos. I use this pedal as a boost for my humbucker guitars. It is a clean boost and is used for the sole purpose of hitting the front end of the amp a little harder. The second pedal is a TIM pedal that I use for boosting my single coil sounds. The TIM has a little bit of a bigger sounding boost that helps me maintain the volume I need when switching guitars in a live situation.

I don't use either of them when I record. They are only used live.

 

[magic man]

But if you are using a distortion pedal into a clean channel, then you are aren't really hearing your amps preamp distortion. It might as well be a crate amp, because you are just hearing your pedal's tone, not your amp's.

Exactly. I use the Muff on top of of the amp's preamp (maybe 6 or so) and with the master set as high as I can. The harder you strike the strings the more it distorts. Then to kill people up front I hit the Muff. Its like "dirty" and "dirtier"