What? You Don't LIKE Ground Noise?

  • Thread starter Thread starter StuGort
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the danger, while it exists, is miniscule.
If you google people who have died from guitar amps, whether working on them or getting electrocuted while using one, there's maybe half a dozen out of the literally billions of times that people have played or worked on amps.

So there's basically zero risk of dying even if you're goofy enough to stick a wire in your pants.
 
Lt. Bob said:
the danger, while it exists, is miniscule. (Snip)

So there's basically zero risk of dying.
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I've never heard such idiotic and misinformed advice. Why then, do governments all over the world spend money advertising electrical safety. In the UK we even have specific advice for musicians. Why are defibrillators being installed everywhere and I count myself quite lucky that my two proper shocks on stage just left small scars. Of course the odds are very small, but you don't need guitarists to be dropping in thousands to consider the risk to be too high. If you want to increase the risk, use these devices, but it's plain stupidity to dismiss the risks. Lottery numbers do come up, have you not noticed? Crazy advice!
 
rob aylestone said:
I've never heard such idiotic and misinformed advice. Why then, do governments all over the world spend money advertising electrical safety. In the UK we even have specific advice for musicians. Why are defibrillators being installed everywhere and I count myself quite lucky that my two proper shocks on stage just left small scars. Of course the odds are very small, but you don't need guitarists to be dropping in thousands to consider the risk to be too high. If you want to increase the risk, use these devices, but it's plain stupidity to dismiss the risks. Lottery numbers do come up, have you not noticed? Crazy advice!
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I think the craziness is from people that are trying to highlight a risk that is not there. You are earthing yourself to the shield of a guitar lead. If there is an electrical problem it is already too late as soon as you touch the guitar you get a shock through the shield regardless of the earth on the lead.

Also don't they use earth leakage circuit breakers in the UK, mandatory here in Oz. As soon as there is a ground voltage present the breaker trips.

Beside all that, you will also notice they my method was to use an alligator clip onto the guitar bridge to the wast band plate. Therefore if the warier through off the guitar the clip would let go.

Alan.
 
rob aylestone said:
I've never heard such idiotic and misinformed advice. Why then, do governments all over the world spend money advertising electrical safety. In the UK we even have specific advice for musicians. Why are defibrillators being installed everywhere and I count myself quite lucky that my two proper shocks on stage just left small scars. Of course the odds are very small, but you don't need guitarists to be dropping in thousands to consider the risk to be too high. If you want to increase the risk, use these devices, but it's plain stupidity to dismiss the risks. Lottery numbers do come up, have you not noticed? Crazy advice!
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I completely agree Rob. Stupid idea.

The principles of electrical safety* are based on layers of individual possibilities that COULD occur and thus we have a second or third layer in place to protect us.

Thus, amplifier chassis very rarely go live...But if one did the earth connection will carry a large current to ground and blow a trip/fuse. We are rarely intimately connected to both the kit and a low earth path so even if both possibilities fail we should survive a shock and let go (had many over the years). Bonding your body to ANY part of an electrical system is just madness.

I am but one person and so have only a few 1000 "forum hours" but in that time I had a "hummy amp thread" that we all thought was a ground loop but on further questioning it became obvious that the amp had lost its safety earth. The poster checked and found the nut (another one!) had come loose on the eyelet. This is why we should PAT test any gigging gear at least annually and check diss boards once a week if you work that much. And FFS! Use an RCD!

IMHO the mods and whoever is in charge of this and all other such forums should make it very plain that bad electrical advice is a no-no. Don't ask how to change the 115/230V wiring on your amp cos' if you have to ask, you should not be doing it! There are probably legal implications as well if someone did die.

*Same as firearms safety. Does not matter if the bloody thing is loaded or not IF it is never pointed at something you don't intend to shoot! Oh! And BTW...NEVER mess with guns or electricals pissed or stoned!
 
Now, I'm not a doctor of racist electrical engineering law...

:D
 
Did I give any advice?
I defy you to quote any advice I gave .... i didn't suggest anyone do or not do anything. That would constitute advice ...... which I didn't give.
Did I say to do the wire thing? No I didn't.
Do ya'll understand what advice is? Maybe that's it ....... maybe you confused not giving advice with giving advice.

ALL I said what that the risk of dying is miniscule .... and then I said that if you google looking for people who have been hurt badly by guitar amps, either working on them or playing thru them, you'll find less than half a dozen out of billions and even possibly trillions of instances.
Sorry but there's no way to make that a great risk ..... do ya'll understand percentages?
Look it up also while you're trying to google what advice is.

I simply stated some FACTS ..... and the facts are that the risk of dying is very, very, very , very small.
And I DID say that the risk exists ..... I just said it's very (insert many verys here) small and it is ........ period.

And let me say that not a single person on this board has more experience than me in this matter. A few people like ecc83 has as much experience but not more.


what a pair of over reacting old ladies.
..... I'm pretty used to ecc83 only half reading posts and responding to things that weren't said though so that's nothing new.

I will now hook up a wire to my pants for every gig and recording session I ever do again (which will be LOTS more than any of you guys do) and I will never be hurt ............ ever.

Well, no I won't but mainly because hooking a wire to yourself is a goofy idea ...... which I said in my first post ..... yet another part of my post ya'll were unable to correctly read.







.
 
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We do use RCD and sometimes ELCBs but sometimes they just don't work. The old style device that actually measured leakage to earth is not a common any longer and RCDs have largely taken over, but disconnect time is still 30mS for most, and over 100mS for the ones used on higher current devices - which include distros commonly used on stage.

As I've patiently tried to explain, the body is quite resilient to shock, as long as the path doesn't go across the heart, and if it does, then a few milliamps is all it takes. Have a look at this [video]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturevideo/musicvideo/10044690/US-singer-electrocuted-on-stage.html[/video] You also see the person that touches him get a shock. This is even an American video, so saying it doesn't happen is a bit crazy. If enough people have shocks and recover, then death is going to happen - but a bad shock that knocks you out is also pretty bad news. Do sensible people really want to have more chance of being injured or dying? If you stick a finger in the AC outlet, you don't always die, but is this saying it's ok to do?

Frankly, dangerous advice saying the danger is less than it clearly is, is irresponsible.
 
Lt. Bob said:
And let me say that not a single person on this board has more experience than me in this matter.
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Well that goes without saying. After all, you're the only person in North America who has actually even gigged. :D
 
Greg_L said:
Lol @ this idiocy.
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True 'nuff. If you think there's the minorest, teensy chance of some small amount of electrical shock killing you completely stone cold dead, just install a GFCI to plug your stuff into. Problem solved. Forget about it. I've been hit a lot of times by ungrounded PA systems in the 70s and 80s. Sometimes hard enough to make the facial muscles tingle for a few minutes...wait, maybe that's what's wrong with my brain. :D
 
BroKen_H said:
True 'nuff. If you think there's the minorest, teensy chance of some small amount of electrical shock killing you completely stone cold dead, just install a GFCI to plug your stuff into. Problem solved. Forget about it. I've been hit a lot of times by ungrounded PA systems in the 70s and 80s. Sometimes hard enough to make the facial muscles tingle for a few minutes...wait, maybe that's what's wrong with my brain. :D
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you and me too brother! :D
 
RAMI said:
Well that goes without saying. After all, you're the only person in North America who has actually even gigged. :D
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well ...... not many people have done over 15,000 gigs ..... and that doesn't count jams or rehearsals ...... I went over 40 years doing around 400 gigs a year ....... even now in my old age I gig a lot ..... it's seasonal here but last summer from june 1 to sept 15 I did 97 gigs. And I never have a Fri. Sat or Sun off even now in this godforsaken state.
And I have always worked on amps too and have a diploma on my wall that says I can work on your amp for ya' although I've never really pursued that much. But I have always worked on my own stuff and friends amps too.

So ..... no one has MORE experience than that ...... maybe as much but not more.
 
:laughings: :laughings:

OK. :D

Good thing you're not like these guys:

what a pair of over reacting old ladies.
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:D

I was joking with you. You're really insecure when it comes to your whole "nobody had gigged as much as me" thing, huh? We get it, Bob, you've gigged. We get it. :eek:
 
I think this thread has evolved into a matter of freedom of speech. A subject I feel passionate about and hate censorship ("they" bugger about unmercifully and without a care for sense here with early evening showings of The Big Bang Theory) but with freedom goes responsibility, the old shouting "Fire" in a crowded theatre argument. Just suggesting a practice that COULD compromise electrical safety, no matter how statistically unlikely is in my view irresponsible.

I have only "gigged" a few times in my life (as a teenager and at a time when electrical systems were FAR more dangerous in the UK especially with our far more lethal 240 volts) but I was in electronics for 50 years and so charged with keeping people safe (dead customers are poor repeat customers).

If all this makes me an Old Lady...Sobeit.

Dave.
 
Look fuckers, instead of arguing about grounding yourself to your equipment, just advise the stupid motherfucker to fix his equipment.
 
Greg_L said:
Look fuckers, instead of arguing about grounding yourself to your equipment, just advise the stupid motherfucker to fix his equipment.
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:p

I suggested that a couple of time already....but I guess it's easier to play with wires in your pants. :laughings:
 
miroslav said:
:p

I suggested that a couple of time already....but I guess it's easier to play with wires in your pants. :laughings:
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The only irresponsibility in this thread is that no one is focusing on the real problem - the doofus is wiring himself to a guitar. Just fix the bad ground. Problem solved.
 
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