What voulme level is best for selling on Itunes?

[Greg_L]

You're pissing in the wind. You'll never convince an audio snob that they're bitter and out of touch with reality. It's common for them to resort to off-the-wall exaggerations and made up scenarios when they get cornered. Just let it go.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

I have heard people say, "Why isn't this song as loud as all my other songs?"

Me not wanting to have to be there to explain over and over again why this song sounds just as good if you only turn up the volume a few more notches so they are on the same db level, does not make me a frightened rabbit or insecure at all....and you are a moron if you think otherwise.

Look, I'm sorry you're that insecure about your songs. If you do happen to be standing there, the only explanation you need to offer is "shut up and listen".


Let's list the common reasons I've heard here and elsewhere about why excessive damaging soul-sucking loudenation is necessary:

*People listen on ear buds. All of those people who suffered hearing damage on $2 headphones before 1995 were lying.

*You need to hear your song in da club. All of those people who suffered hearing damage in da club before 1995 were lying.

*People do stuff like driving while listening to music these days. All of those factory car stereos installed before 1996 must have been a massive bit of performance art since I guess they didn't play music.

*People play music while giving their primary attention to Facebook and text messaging. If you don't fit the mold, they won't be able to treat your music as disposable background filler, and that would be a shame.

*Nobody cares about sound. At all. They don't care about sound to such a high degree that they will, with 100% reliability, not buy any song that has different sound than other modern releases.

*People decide if they like a song based on how loud it is. The following scenario happens all the time: Here I am at the iTunes store... Oh wow! The new Pigeon Butchers album! I f^&$'n LOVE these songs! Eh...wait...Justin Beiber is louder. I guess I have to suffer through that "baby, baby, baby" crap instead...

*The only stuff that can possibly sell is loudenated to high heaven...except for the millions of older legacy catalog songs that still sell like crazy. But the only reason people buy them is because they like those songs, so that doesn't count.

*It is way too much work to personally explain to every customer why the volume is lower, because obviously any time an album does not sound exactly like The Current Template people need an in-person answer before enjoyment can occur.

 

[showstone]

Yup. You are just an idiot. To draw those conclusions about what I have said proves that you are a complete moron who can't even see that I am agreeing with that squashed mixes suck.

You may be great at other things in life....but the power of logical discernment escapes you......

 

[Greg_L]

Yup. You are just an idiot. To draw those conclusions about what I have said proves that you are a complete moron who can't even see that I am agreeing with that squashed mixes suck.

You may be great at other things in life....but the power of logical discernment escapes you......

I told ya.

 

[showstone]

Yeah, I see. I just thought I could change the world I guess...at least to a place where we don't have to have the same arguement over and over again....

 

[Greg_L]

Yeah, I see. I just thought I could change the world I guess...

Not on the internet you can't. Cliques and pied-piperism are all the rage.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Yup. You are just an idiot. To draw those conclusions about what I have said proves that you are a complete moron who can't even see that I am agreeing with that squashed mixes suck.

I'm the idiot, but you're the one doing something to your own music that you know is detrimental. Sure.


Look, it is true that some people might not buy your song because it is not loudenated.

It is also true that some people might not buy your song because it is loudenated. Some people might not buy your song because it is 10 minutes long, is too short, contains an obscenity, features a saxophone, covers girly subject matter, covers macho boastful subject matter, has no percussion, doesn't have the guitar mixed high enough, is not in 4/4, samples the chorus of a sacred childhood favorite, contains experimental dissonant melodies, is too cookie-cutter, or 100 other reasons.

This is why no song is bought by every person. It is literally impossible to finish a production and not do something that will directly cause somebody to not buy your song. So the only thing you can do is make every production decision in favor of making your song better.

You admit your choice to loudenate makes your song worse. And you do it anyway. And I'm the illogical one.

Of all the production choices that could turn a listener off, why grab on to "flat maximized levels" and shake it like a pit bull at the expense of all else?

 

[Greg_L]

I'
Of all the production choices that could turn a listener off, why grab on to "flat maximized levels" and shake it like a pit bull at the expense of all else?

Because regular listeners don't care. Only internet audio snobs do.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Because regular listeners don't care. Only internet audio snobs do.

If they don't care, then by definition THEY DON'T CARE!

So they won't miss it if it's not there.

So you don't have to do it.




The insanity...
Loudenation is fine because the masses don't give a rat's ass about any aspect of sound. Go ahead and damage it all you want!
But don't even think about not loudenating. If the sound is off even a little from what is expected, the masses won't touch it.

 

[Greg_L]

If they don't care, then by definition THEY DON'T CARE!

So they won't miss it if it's not there.

So you don't have to do it.

They'll notice when your song is half the volume as everything else. I know, I know, turn it up. Then they'll have to turn it back down, and wonder why your shit is so quiet and weak.

 

[showstone]

They'll notice when your song is half the volume as everything else. I know, I know, turn it up. Then they'll have to turn it back down, and wonder why your shit is so quiet and weak.

Exactly....let me be more clear. I am not talking about my music. I stopped producing my music, I don't write my music anymore. I am not talking about my music...never have. I am talking about me, a small hobbyist wanting to move into a commercial setting. I am talking about when clients listen to their music that I have recorded and mixed....I don't consider what I do on the master bus mastering. I make no claim to having the ability to master anywhere near what a pro could do.

When they pull out the latest _______________ and put their cd in....you can visually see the disappointment on their face that their music isn't as loud as the cd they are trying to emulate. To them, and countless others, the softer, more dynamic cd sounds weak and wimpy, they have to turn up the volume just to hear what is being played....they don't equate the lack of dynamics as detrimental to the music...they see it as slamming. Conversely, they don't enjoy the subtle nuances of your dynamic mix, because they are hung up on the fact that their cd is half the volume of the bands they say are there influences. So, in order for them to be happy with their purchase, I compress the master bus, sometimes even more than twice. I don't slam my mixes, I try keep the musicality of the piece while acheiving results that compare favorably to commercial loudness. If the commercial studios would stop spewing out Max Limited mixes with rms levels hitting -3 and the peaks dancing at 0.....it would make all of our lives easier trying to compete in the market.

Am I foolish enough to believe that the 4 albums I may produce in the next 2 years are going to be what revolutionalizes the market....fuck no. Therefore in order not get overlooked, I need to be able to produce an album that compares favorably with todays trends in the market.....end of story.

Now this is all under the assumption we are talking about rock and roll and all its derivatives....If I am making a jazz, orchestral, or americana folk album.....then the arguement becomes much less of a factor. But in order to compete in the Rock and Roll market, you need to be able to do loud. That's what clients hear, thats what their fans hear, if you give either on different....then they are not happy.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

They'll notice when your song is half the volume as everything else. I know, I know, turn it up. Then they'll have to turn it back down, and wonder why your shit is so quiet and weak.

So what is it? They do care about sound or they don't care about sound?

If they notice a difference in volume and that difference affects their enjoyment one way or another, then that is one aspect of sound that they care about. So we firmly establish that sound is on the listener's radar. From there everybody is making the leap that loudness is the only aspect of sound anybody is able to notice. All other aspects of sound are in the "don't care" bin. Furthermore, having established that listeners identify and care about differences in volume we make the leap that nobody wants anything musical happening in the one single area of sound we assume they can identify.

Sounds like a foolish leap to make.

 

[showstone]

A foolish leap? Hmmmm, riddle me this....what percentage of listeners understand that the reason they "get sick of" an album/song/artist has a lot to do with ear fatigue due to lack of dynamics?

Slim to none, furthermore, how many average listeners are aware of "ear fatigue"?

 

[Chibi Nappa]

When they pull out the latest _______________ and put their cd in....you can visually see the disappointment on their face that their music isn't as loud as the cd they are trying to emulate.

Am I foolish enough to believe that the 4 albums I may produce in the next 2 years are going to be what revolutionalizes the market....fuck no.

I'm sorry you have so much insecurity about your abilities.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

A foolish leap? Hmmmm, riddle me this....what percentage of listeners understand that the reason they "get sick of" an album/song/artist has a lot to do with ear fatigue due to lack of dynamics?

Slim to none, furthermore, how many average listeners are aware of "ear fatigue"?

What does that have to do with what I wrote?

I wrote that it is foolish to insist that most people have the ability to identify and derive enjoyment from one specific element of sound and none of the others.

 

[showstone]

Lol....that is the most ignorant thing you have said this whole arguement. Millions and millions of albums made over the last 10 plus years and I am insecure because I don't think realistically that I will start a trend that revolutionizes the recording industry within the next two years...from my apt....in ND....part time......

Ok, I see now that any type of realistic, logical, sane conversation just left aboard the space shuttle....are you high?

 

[showstone]

What does that have to do with what I wrote?

I wrote that it is foolish to insist that most people have the ability to identify and derive enjoyment from one specific element of sound and none of the others.

I had points that went along with your answer but after what you keep saying about insecurity.....I have come to the understanding that you are dettached from reality.....I am truly over it.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Lay your logic out for me. Why loudenate? Give me logic, not "it might be disappointing to some people if you don't" or "everybody does it".

Show me logically the argument for something that you know causes people to tune out and turns the sound quality to shit.

 

[grimtraveller]

They'll notice when your song is half the volume as everything else. I know, I know, turn it up. Then they'll have to turn it back down, and wonder why your shit is so quiet and weak.

The implication there is that they already have your song, in the midst of all the others on their ipod playlist {s}. If I'm following this right, your perhaps quieter song causes the listener to either grizzle because they have to physically turn up the volume or they hear a small quiet snatch and then they just skip to the next track.
Two things intrigue me here; if they already have the song on their ipod, that means one of two things ~ either they've already paid for it or they've 'acquired' it {illegally, from a friend etc}. Either way, it can't make a difference to the artist. Once someone has your song, there is absolutely nothing you can do to influence when and how many times your song gets played by them. So whether it gets skipped repeatedly or listened to regularly is beyond anyone's control but the listener. Be happy you have their cash ! And if you don't, you won't know anyway !!
So it's a circular argument. I think Showstone is right when he places the argument on the different levels that exist. If a client wants a particular shade of mastering, then that's what they want. Not much you can do about that other than to say 'I won't do it. Take it elsewhere'. But it's far from audio snobbery to in effect say that it's the quality of a song that nudges people to buy {or 'acquire'} it. I don't doubt that there are people who make up their minds on an initial whim and sometimes they turn out to be good choices with longevity. And sometimes, the vice is versa.
What much of this argument demonstrates is how unwilling we often are to take into account all the variables that exist within a given situation.

 

[Greg_L]

I already made the "they bought it already" point. That's fine and dandy. You got their money....once. It aint gonna happen again if they constantly skip your track.