R
RAMI
Guest
Anyone else find it ironic that the guy with 2 posts comes in here and makes a pretty in-accurate and very selective observation without doing any research within the same thread.
Last edited:
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
They all gotta start somewhere... 
G
Greg_L
Banned
Shut the fuck up and buy one.
S
showstone
New member
Allow me to preface this by saying I have no professional credentials, am strictly hobby with the intention of moving into a scaled down commercial setting.
I am so sick of almost every thread ending in an unwinnable arguement about the "loudness war".
I honestly can't see how you can argue against Greg's point.
!. The loudness wars suck, dynamically crushed music is fatiguing and less enjoyable than the dynamic mixes of the past.
2. This trend has been here for over a decade and there does not appear to be any end in sight.
3. Average Joe Blow listener is COMPLETELY CLUELESS as to what is actually going on....Furthermore, chances are that none of them would even be able to tell the difference anyway. The fact is, peoples lifestyles have changed dramatically. Most music enjoyment is now done while multitasking, Ipods, MP3 players on phones, laptop speakers, and car audio is now the main medium of listening. Often distracted by cleaning, driving, exercising, shopping, homework, etc, etc.
4. In order for us (small studio, hobbyist, selfproducing artists) to maintain any kind of level playing field, we need to join in the loudness war or be left behind. Truth is the louder the mix is on a "good" (using that term loosely) song, people(making generalizations based on real world experiences) think this song is slamming/bumping/kicking/rocking, when these top 40 rock and pop songs come on. They are jamming to Nickelback's latest cookie cutter cheese fest when your song comes up next on the Ipod and they reach to turn the volume up, out of respect, turn to you and sheepishly ask why your stuff isn't as loud as what is coming out of professional studios.
What do you do then? Should we start putting out dynamic albums with disclaimers on the front declaring our complete disdain of the dynamic-crushing mastering process utilized by the corporate music producers of todays current trends. We believe it to be against the integrity of the music and therefore refuse to partake in the blah, blah, blah.....what next? Disclaimers on business cards/websites! Maybe we can tag our songs like dj's do when they do mixtape remixes.
No. We either "pump" our music up or get skipped over by all but the purest audiophiles.
I am pretty certain that is what he has said over and over again.....and I agree. I've seen it in the real world, watched it happen to me and other musicians. You can explain to them the whole it hasn't been slammed against a brick wall and has beautiful dynamic range. But that lasts as long as it takes to get back to that slamming Katy Perry song.
We all agree we like dynamics, we all agree we like loud....with dynamics. We all agree that the current trend is against this.
What we disagree on is, how and when it will end.....can we now just agree to disagree?
I am so sick of almost every thread ending in an unwinnable arguement about the "loudness war".
I honestly can't see how you can argue against Greg's point.
!. The loudness wars suck, dynamically crushed music is fatiguing and less enjoyable than the dynamic mixes of the past.
2. This trend has been here for over a decade and there does not appear to be any end in sight.
3. Average Joe Blow listener is COMPLETELY CLUELESS as to what is actually going on....Furthermore, chances are that none of them would even be able to tell the difference anyway. The fact is, peoples lifestyles have changed dramatically. Most music enjoyment is now done while multitasking, Ipods, MP3 players on phones, laptop speakers, and car audio is now the main medium of listening. Often distracted by cleaning, driving, exercising, shopping, homework, etc, etc.
4. In order for us (small studio, hobbyist, selfproducing artists) to maintain any kind of level playing field, we need to join in the loudness war or be left behind. Truth is the louder the mix is on a "good" (using that term loosely) song, people(making generalizations based on real world experiences) think this song is slamming/bumping/kicking/rocking, when these top 40 rock and pop songs come on. They are jamming to Nickelback's latest cookie cutter cheese fest when your song comes up next on the Ipod and they reach to turn the volume up, out of respect, turn to you and sheepishly ask why your stuff isn't as loud as what is coming out of professional studios.
What do you do then? Should we start putting out dynamic albums with disclaimers on the front declaring our complete disdain of the dynamic-crushing mastering process utilized by the corporate music producers of todays current trends. We believe it to be against the integrity of the music and therefore refuse to partake in the blah, blah, blah.....what next? Disclaimers on business cards/websites! Maybe we can tag our songs like dj's do when they do mixtape remixes.
No. We either "pump" our music up or get skipped over by all but the purest audiophiles.
I am pretty certain that is what he has said over and over again.....and I agree. I've seen it in the real world, watched it happen to me and other musicians. You can explain to them the whole it hasn't been slammed against a brick wall and has beautiful dynamic range. But that lasts as long as it takes to get back to that slamming Katy Perry song.
We all agree we like dynamics, we all agree we like loud....with dynamics. We all agree that the current trend is against this.
What we disagree on is, how and when it will end.....can we now just agree to disagree?
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I think there's a slight contradiction there between the two statements. If average Joe and Josetta Blow don't know what's going on and couldn't tell the difference anyway, then how does it suddenly make a difference and suddenly they can ?
I also think that we make too much of this "music while multitasking" bit. Since the car radio, radio, cassette player, people have done things as a regular practice to music. I was doing that as a kid in the mid 70s. I did virtually everything to music. It's interesting observing how many times in older films you might see someone playing music while cooking or something. Mind you, it's nearly always classical music !
That all said, your post is a well put one with plenty of food for consideration.
S
showstone
New member
They don't realize that by crushing the dynamics of the song you can reach louder levels...or the detriment is has to the listening enjoyment.
If you put the average listener in a room and played two different mixes of the same cd on the same monitoring chain, they would not be able to articulate the fact that the "crushed" mix fatigues their ears and that is the reason they get bored or start do "get sick of that cd"....chances are if you play the dynamic mix at a higher level they would truly enjoy the experience. (Assuming of course that it is music they like and appreciate in the first place.)
My point is that they don't understand the process of producing an album. They think you record it and ship it off to be made into a cd. If small studio's cd "comes back" and it doesn't sound as loud(insert good, cuz that's what they are thinking) they assume it's something done wrong by the small studio. I have had conversations with people who claim to love and know alot about music, and this is the general reoccuring theme.
If you put the average listener in a room and played two different mixes of the same cd on the same monitoring chain, they would not be able to articulate the fact that the "crushed" mix fatigues their ears and that is the reason they get bored or start do "get sick of that cd"....chances are if you play the dynamic mix at a higher level they would truly enjoy the experience. (Assuming of course that it is music they like and appreciate in the first place.)
My point is that they don't understand the process of producing an album. They think you record it and ship it off to be made into a cd. If small studio's cd "comes back" and it doesn't sound as loud(insert good, cuz that's what they are thinking) they assume it's something done wrong by the small studio. I have had conversations with people who claim to love and know alot about music, and this is the general reoccuring theme.
C
Chibi Nappa
New member
The easy solution to that is to not give a damn whether or not anybody thinks you did something wrong.
When people say the loudness war is a dick measuring contest based mostly on insecurity, this is what they're talking about. Grow some balls and release exactly what you want to release.
S
showstone
New member
Oh come one now....did you even read the post before that? Or did you just slobber all over yourself with the opportunity to spew some shit on someone.
Had you read the prior post and the one made by grim you would realize that we are talking about back to back A/B betwixt a crushed mix and one that retains dynamics.
It's like trying to have a rational conversation about religion....the zealots lose all sense of logic.
Had you read the prior post and the one made by grim you would realize that we are talking about back to back A/B betwixt a crushed mix and one that retains dynamics.
It's like trying to have a rational conversation about religion....the zealots lose all sense of logic.
G
Greg_L
Banned
Lol. It's hard for them to read the small screen from way up there on their pulpit.
M
moresound
Loud Sun Studios
Hey just turn it down in here will ya! People are trying to read in the noob section.
G
Greg_L
Banned
Make everything as loud as possible. If the listener doesn't like it, they can just turn it down. That's what volume knobs are for!
S
showstone
New member
Fine and dandy....until you try to find paying clients. Retain your musical integrity with the "I don't give a damn what you think" approach. Exceeeeeeept....you have to give a damn because anyone that is going to pay you to do their album is going to give a damn.
This has nothing to do with insecurity or big dick contests. This has to do with the state of current mastering trends and how the rest of us fit into the equation.
What I want to release and what a customer wants released maybe two different things. How are you not following this train of thought?
C
Chibi Nappa
New member
I'm talking about when you are the producer, not mastering for somebody else.
masteringhouse
www.masteringhouse.com
WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERY POST LOOKED LIKE THIS?
I used to work with someone who sent emails like this frequently because they thought the response would be quicker since it appeared more urgent. Sure it gets your attention initially, but after a while I felt a tendency to respond less due to irritation factor or just hit delete.
It can be that way with music too. I'll turn great music up voluntarily, in fact I feel that the urge to turn a track up is a sign of the listener wanting to become engaged, while turning something down is a vote against (both within reasonable amounts).
As said above and elsewhere if you want people to listen, read, or respond in any fashion, it's mostly dependent on good content and a delivery that is appropriate for that content.
I used to work with someone who sent emails like this frequently because they thought the response would be quicker since it appeared more urgent. Sure it gets your attention initially, but after a while I felt a tendency to respond less due to irritation factor or just hit delete.
It can be that way with music too. I'll turn great music up voluntarily, in fact I feel that the urge to turn a track up is a sign of the listener wanting to become engaged, while turning something down is a vote against (both within reasonable amounts).
As said above and elsewhere if you want people to listen, read, or respond in any fashion, it's mostly dependent on good content and a delivery that is appropriate for that content.
Last edited:
C
Chibi Nappa
New member
*sigh* No, no. We can't keep this lie up any longer about how regular people could fit music into their daily lives back in the day. So I might as well tell the true story about how bands from decades past made all of those millions of dollars:
William R. Moneyworth IV - Steven, old boy! So good to see you!
Steven Tyler - So, what's going on, Will?
William R. Moneyworth IV - Well, Steven, It's about your music. I love how quiet it is. Loud noises make my monocle vibrate, you know. But if it isn't too much trouble, I do fancy a song about how irksome it is when the help is sweeping the floor three rooms down the hall. Such a ruckus all but downs out the music, by Jove.
Steven Tyler - I don't know, Will. I like your staff. I don't want to write something that insults so many hard working people.
William R. Moneyworth IV - Nonsense, old boy! Why, with the radios those commoners are able to procure, they can't possibly hear the lyrics in music as quiet as Aerosmith. They won't hear a thing, my good fellow.
Steven Tyler - Alright, tell you what. We'll use code. When I sing "Do me. Do me. Do me. Do me. Oooowwww!!", that will actually mean that I'm complaining about an inconsiderate maid sweeping too loudly. How's that sound?
William R. Moneyworth IV - Splendid! Yes! I say, Jarvis. Hop in the motor coach and purchase 10 million copies of Steven's previous musical recordings. This new song sounds exciting and I must be sure he has the means to produce it!
Jarvis - Very good, Sir.
Bonus trivia:
You know how concert goers threw up their hands with "devil horns" in the 70's and 80's? Those were rich people trying their hardest to show just how "fancy" they were. You can only extend your pinky finger so far. After that, to get any fancier you have to extend your index finger as well. After all, your index finger is the pinky on the other side of your hand.
G
Greg_L
Banned
S
showstone
New member
WTF does that have to do with small studios songs not equalling volume when compared to "big studio mastering house slammed against a brickwall limiter" mixes?
Seriously, that's what this debate/arguement comes down to. Small independent studios are not going to change the current trend. In order to ensure that "our" mixes do not sounding lacking when directly compared to Major Studio Release A, we then are forced to try to keep up in the volume wars.....or have your material largely overlooked by average consumer who thinks that it is lacking because clearly it isn't as loud as Nickelback's new song.
S
showstone
New member
As far as how the average listener actually consumes today's music....thru cheap earbuds, MP3 players on smartphones, stock car speakers, or the "in-ceiling speaker that pumps easy listeninig into the lobby where soooo mannnny people work.
Long gone are the days of pouring over the liner notes of your favorite band while listening to their album on your HiFi Kenwood home stereo.
People want their music like they want their lunch from McDonalds. Quick, easy, and don't pull any funny stuff changing anything up. If your burger(song) isn't as hot(loud) as McDonalds(Sony/DGC/Columbia/etc) then they will just go McDonalds and not stop back, cuz your burgers(songs) weren't as good as the other place.
Come on now....am I really that far off here....I don't think so.
Long gone are the days of pouring over the liner notes of your favorite band while listening to their album on your HiFi Kenwood home stereo.
People want their music like they want their lunch from McDonalds. Quick, easy, and don't pull any funny stuff changing anything up. If your burger(song) isn't as hot(loud) as McDonalds(Sony/DGC/Columbia/etc) then they will just go McDonalds and not stop back, cuz your burgers(songs) weren't as good as the other place.
Come on now....am I really that far off here....I don't think so.
C
Chibi Nappa
New member
No you are dead-on. I mean, just about everything you said is incorrect, but it brilliantly illustrates the insecurity and "frightened rabbit" mentality that keeps this crap alive. So in that sense you really nailed the thought process.
Overheard while watching TV at a commoner's house:
Damn it, not again! The volume went away when the commercials ended! This TV show is obviously defective. Fast forward to the next commercial! Gimme that hot McDonnalds!
S
showstone
New member
Ok, either you are being daft on purpose or completely out of touch with reality.
We are not talking about TV or the difference between program volume and the volume of commercials....not even close. But you are on the right track with the annoyance factor...just as you are annoyed by the blaring commercials, so are people annoyed when quieter songs come on their set and forget Ipod. If you set your TV to comfortable listening based on commercials and left at that relative volume when watching TV, then yes, you too would be annoyed by how quiet your favorite programs were.
I have NEVER EVER been listening to music when a "Pro-Studio Produced" song came on music player and heard ANYONE EVER say "ohhh, that's too loud! Why do they make those darn cd's sooo loud?"
I have heard people say, "Why isn't this song as loud as all my other songs?"
Me not wanting to have to be there to explain over and over again why this song sounds just as good if you only turn up the volume a few more notches so they are on the same db level, does not make me a frightened rabbit or insecure at all....and you are a moron if you think otherwise.
The whole point of providing a service and expecting people to pay you for that service REQUIRES that you give a good product. If their music sounds winpy next a commercial release....they believe that YOU failed to provide them with the type of service that they could have gotten elsewhere.
That is what this discussion is about. Not fear or insecurity....and to think otherwise, after hearing the very plainly put description of actuall events that illustrate the point that is being made....is ignorant and ludicrous.
We are not talking about TV or the difference between program volume and the volume of commercials....not even close. But you are on the right track with the annoyance factor...just as you are annoyed by the blaring commercials, so are people annoyed when quieter songs come on their set and forget Ipod. If you set your TV to comfortable listening based on commercials and left at that relative volume when watching TV, then yes, you too would be annoyed by how quiet your favorite programs were.
I have NEVER EVER been listening to music when a "Pro-Studio Produced" song came on music player and heard ANYONE EVER say "ohhh, that's too loud! Why do they make those darn cd's sooo loud?"
I have heard people say, "Why isn't this song as loud as all my other songs?"
Me not wanting to have to be there to explain over and over again why this song sounds just as good if you only turn up the volume a few more notches so they are on the same db level, does not make me a frightened rabbit or insecure at all....and you are a moron if you think otherwise.
The whole point of providing a service and expecting people to pay you for that service REQUIRES that you give a good product. If their music sounds winpy next a commercial release....they believe that YOU failed to provide them with the type of service that they could have gotten elsewhere.
That is what this discussion is about. Not fear or insecurity....and to think otherwise, after hearing the very plainly put description of actuall events that illustrate the point that is being made....is ignorant and ludicrous.