what REEL 2 REEL ?

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Dr ZEE said:
in the wars!

on a scale of whose levele meter? :rolleyes: :eek: :eek: :eek:
arghhhhhhhhhhh :mad: , nevermind.
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I suppose, the digital route is cheaper on mci's price list that is. or is there some other point ot it? ;)

That Sounds like a perfect client, then :)


That is a rather common situation. nothing unusual nor outstanding nor revealing. People hear/see/know no difference and save all the time.
**********
now for "conclusions":

That one has no relationship to the "story of my client" above ;) , but I'd say it has to be true: more expansive stuff better than less expansive stuff, not to say that it is the case all the time, but most of the time, I suppose. So?????!!!!!!! So what? What are we "stressing" here? :D

That depends on who is listening and how (circumstance - situation, demand, attention, focus, amount(lengths/time) of material etc) he/she listens.


that is a faulty cliche.


For the application (music recording/production that is) - It depends. It's greater - Not better.


Yes it is! :D Which makes digital recording a weapon of choce for recording The Silence.

/WAR! :D :p :D

WOW, Zee, every single one of your comments shows how little you really know about recording and how much you just cannot stand digital in any configuration. You can't understand anything and you are becoming one of the more laughable posters around. I crack up when you argue with knowledgable people, and they have the same reaction to your rediculous comments. It is better to STOP typing and do some research on recording so you can have some intelligent feedback. Really, do some reading and stop with parroting the same old wive's tales you keep telling.
 
cjacek said:
Digital cannot map (or capture) the multitude of multidimensional objects that are present within our environment, whether heard or perceived. It is for that reason, at least my reasoning goes, that digital recordings don't sound quite "right". Digital setups can't capture the natural environment of space and sound as we know it. If you don't hear a difference between analog and digital then perhaps the Analog Only forum is not for you ? Just a thought.

In pro tape or digital systems, there is very little difference in sound. There is moreof a difference with home tape and home digital. Pro Sound Web did this very thing last year with Fletcher leading the pack and the whole thing blew up into a shitfest because every single analog freak could not pick the digital recording out of a flock with any accuracy at all.

You can try to argue till your blue in the face about this, but a $35,000 Studer 24 track 2" vs. a $25,000 RADAR proved there is no difference in sound and the actual engineer who started the whole debate turned out to be wrong also.

Cheap digital sound bad, cheap analog sounds worse, that is all.
 
MCI2424 said:
...how little you really know about recording...
wrong! I know absolutely nothing. And I do sleep well. :p
MCI2424 said:
You can't understand anything ...
I don't need to. All I need is to be abble to use a hammer. That works well for me.
MCI2424 said:
It is better to STOP typing and do some research on recording so you can have some intelligent feedback.
Recording for recordist, researching for researcher. I record. I do not research. As for "intelligent feedback", I've got planty of it when picking the string, more than I need, actually, so have to fight it, doing it unitelligent way, of course. :D
MCI2424 said:
Really, do some reading ...
I would. But the problem is that the stuff to read in most cases is written by guys like MCI2424. It's hard to find anything useful. Not enough time for searching through. I do NOT research, remember? ;)
MCI2424 said:
I crack up when you argue ...
No sh*t! I visualize you cracking rather well. It looks like this:
 

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cjacek said:
I, frankly, shudder at the mere thought of capturing sounds as a series of non-linear, mathematically representated and approximated "snapshots" of the original. Doesn't sit well with me at all. :rolleyes:

Daniel, I respect you for candidly saying what your problem is with digital recording, which seems to be at the conceptual level. Can I respectfully try to speak to this point?

Just like digital, analog audio recording is also only approximate. So it's only a question of HOW approximate which is important.

Both analog and digital only have to be accurate enough so that we cant tell the difference. Any more than that is a waste of tape and machine design (with analog) and a waste of processing and storage power (with digital).
Both formats are capable of recording with an accuracy waaayy beyond what is needed, although (you are going to hate this) analog tape can only record a limited number of octaves in one hit without level anomolies. But in normal circumstances it's not too much of a problem, as we know. It was a huge problem with trying to use analog tape for home video recording, but they eventually got around the problem with some very clever design, but that is another story.

If you want analog to go way above audible frequencies and still have a good bottom end, you cant do it. There is a tradeoff that has to be made. Other techniques like FM recording are needed,(as in hifi home videotapes) but that takes it beyond normal analog as we know it..

But with digital, there is no such tradeoff. You really can record from the lowest bass up to ultrasonic frequencies and not have to compromise.

That's why it's not right to speak of "approximate" as some kind of valid criticism. It's all approximate. The question is what is accurate enough for the purpose. If it's too approximate we just make it more precise. If it's too precise it's a waste of resources.
The whole world of science is based on measurement within a certain level of accuracy.
Just like the specs on an analog machine, there should be a tolerance level stated, like + or - 2db etc. That tells you HOW accurate, or inaccurate it is. If you accept the approximations of analog tape, why not accept the approximations of digital? Nothing is perfect. But things can be made to be more than adequate for the purpose. Here as in everything else in life.

If your argument is about the supersonic frequencies that we cant actually hear but in some way sense, then sure, CD limits these sharply. But if you're really fussy, with a higher sample rate, as with SACD or DVD Audio you get your supersonics back. Digital can go supersonic even better than analog tape AND not sacrifice the bass response. (BTW SACD has been a poor seller because most people dont feel the need for the extra fidelity. We are talking about very minor improvements at best anyway)

The final proof is the listening but it's good to understand that digital's "approximations" can be made so very close that no one, but no one will be able to tell the difference, except maybe bats, cats and dogs, and most of those I've known personally dont buy a lot of recorded music anyway.

Stay with analog for all sorts of good reasons but in a final shootout, the best analog recording will not trump the best digital recording. That's reality.


Regards, Tim G
 
Tim Gillett said:
... the best analog recording will not trump the best digital recording. That's reality.
Nop. That is NOT reality.
The reality is this: the (best) analog recording does not need, never needed nor ever had to trump the (best) digital one. It rather is the other way around - the digital had and still have to trump the analog. And in reality (not on paper, that is) the other way around have never materialized for digital (not even approximately ;) ).
Announcement was made and was repeated many many times, but it just has never occurred, meaning that such act of trumping has never happen to be witnessed by people who actually DO KNOW a thing or two about music recording and do not rely on "researches" when it comes to making a judgement.

/WAR ..., that is :D
 
MCI2424 said:
Pro Sound Web did this very thing last year with Fletcher leading the pack and the whole thing blew up into a shitfest because every single analog freak could not pick the digital recording out of a flock with any accuracy at all.
And so such "experiment" reveals only one thing, which is: every single analog freak on Pro Sound Web can not pick the digital recording out of a specific presented for an evaluation flock with any accuracy.
Also, if such experiment was conducted with the objective of trying to conclude something (anything) in respect to analog vs. digital recording for music production application, then it also reveals the overall level of intelligence of Pro Sound Web members. No big surprise there, if it's so. It's alright, - the guys are Pros, you know ;)

MCI2424 said:
Cheap digital sound bad, cheap analog sounds worse, that is all.
The above statement radiates a such strong field of intelligence, that My remaining hair are rising, curling, smoking and burning. Auch! :D
 

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Dr ZEE said:
Nop. That is NOT reality.
The reality is this: the (best) analog recording does not need, never needed nor ever had to trump the (best) digital one. It rather is the other way around - the digital had and still have to trump the analog. And in reality (not on paper, that is) the other way around have never materialized for digital (not even approximately ;) ).
Announcement was made and was repeated many many times, but it just has never occurred, meaning that such act of trumping has never happen to be witnessed by people who actually DO KNOW a thing or two about music recording and do not rely on "researches" when it comes to making a judgement.

/WAR ..., that is :D

Digital now trumps, destroys and makes a complete joke out of analog.
 
Dr ZEE said:
And so such "experiment" reveals only one thing, which is: every single analog freak on Pro Sound Web can not pick the digital recording out of a specific presented for an evaluation flock with any accuracy.
Also, if such experiment was conducted with the objective of trying to conclude something (anything) in respect to analog vs. digital recording for music production application, then it also reveals the overall level of intelligence of Pro Sound Web members. No big surprise there, if it's so. It's alright, - the guys are Pros, you know ;)


The above statement radiates a such strong field of intelligence, that My remaining hair are rising, curling, smoking and burning. Auch! :D

BTW: You are really making stupid statements. Now I KNOW you are totally full of shit, in a nice way, of coarse. There is no talking to people like you 'cause you are as closed minded as they come.

Congrats.
 
MCI2424 said:
In pro tape or digital systems, there is very little difference in sound. There is moreof a difference with home tape and home digital. Pro Sound Web did this very thing last year with Fletcher leading the pack and the whole thing blew up into a shitfest because every single analog freak could not pick the digital recording out of a flock with any accuracy at all.

You can try to argue till your blue in the face about this, but a $35,000 Studer 24 track 2" vs. a $25,000 RADAR proved there is no difference in sound and the actual engineer who started the whole debate turned out to be wrong also.

Cheap digital sound bad, cheap analog sounds worse, that is all.

Those of us that prefer analog make our own judgments based on personal real-world experience, not on some contrived test using streaming digital audio. In my case it's 30 years of real-world experience.

As usual, you speak as an outsider whose experience is limited to cyber reality. Either that or your selling something. No other species would insist on returning here with the same worn-out old arguments.

Those of us that are not manufacturer representatives, music store salesmen or digital studio proprietors can speak honestly about the issue in these forums. We have nothing to gain or lose monetarily and the freedom to choose excellence over the status quo.

By the way, your last comments to Dr ZEE are unacceptable. Unless you want that we should all bet odds on what your next user ID will be when MCI2424 is banned, I suggest you revise, withdraw or apologize for those statements.

No one is waving any flags for your cause here.
 
Tim Gillett said:
...but it's good to understand that digital's "approximations" can be made so very close that no one, but no one will be able to tell the difference, except maybe bats, cats and dogs...

Stay with analog for all sorts of good reasons but in a final shootout, the best analog recording will not trump the best digital recording. That's reality.

Based on my experience nothing could be further from the truth.
 
Mci

Its pretty strange that people could care more about how they get there rather than where they are going.

Dont you find that the hardest part of recording and making music lies in the performance and the songs rather than in the differences in sound between mediums? I usually dont like the way new records sound, even though they seem very clear and hifi. With really low lows and high highs. But when i was a younger person and i loved a song i didnt care if i had it on twice duplicated cassette as long as i could play it and listen to it.

Arguing over what sounds better to capture art is like arguing over who is a better music critic. Either way youre still just a barnacle on the ass of the real talent, the songwriter and the musician. Id strive for more if i was you. Besides, how much pride can you take in some other mans design and engineering? Unless you yourself built the machine you are using i dont see how you could take so much pride in it that it would eclipse the task at hand, which is making music people will enjoy. This is not a flame or an insult or an attempt to sound smarter than anyone here. Because i dont know what you know and i know that my experience is pretty limited when it comes to recording. But i do know this, if an idea of mine is any good at all it will sound appealing no matter how i record it, but if an idea of mine sucks no amount of polishing or fidelity ever seems to fix it. No effects no nothing. So stressing over which 35 thousand dollar machine (that i could never have built myself) out performs which seems pretty lame.

You know, i sometimes come here to read what people are saying about things but i get depressed often. Because reading arguments about which 5 thousand dollar monitoring system is "junk" or which 25 thousand dollar recorder is "useless" makes me feel like the entire point of art has been lost. You may argue that recording is about capturing art, but i personally wouldnt ever want to record with an engineer or producer whos concern was in the specs and technical BS. I think recording records takes a bunch of artists who specialize in different things working together. And art was never and never will be about 1s and 0s or tape width or anything like that. Im sorry to bum you out but thats just fact. 1s and 0s dont make people tap their toe.
 
MCI2424 said:
Pro Sound Web did this very thing last year with Fletcher leading the pack and the whole thing blew up into a shitfest because every single analog freak could not pick the digital recording out of a flock with any accuracy at all.

The only way to make a test of this sort make any sense, is to have the participants in the same room, listening straight from the source and not through their PC's in wav or mp3 form, if that is the way it was done. The second you turn Analog into Digital, you make it a sketch of its former self.
 
MCI2424 said:
Digital now trumps, destroys and makes a complete joke out of analog.

You're in the Analog Only forum, you know .. :rolleyes: :cool:
 
MCI2424 said:
BTW: You are really making stupid statements. Now I KNOW you are totally full of shit, in a nice way, of coarse. There is no talking to people like you 'cause you are as closed minded as they come.

Congrats.

Actually it was a pretty sound statement that Dr. Zee made. I too am completely puzzled why people over at Pro Sound Web would make and volunteer to take part in a stupid, unreliable test such as the one you speak of. It's not rocket science that when you take part in such a mass "test" that you're hearing a wav or an mp3, which cannot fully represent the source analog signal.
 
cjacek said:
why people over at Pro Sound Web would make and volunteer to take part in a stupid, unreliable test ...
Easy answer: It's party time! Get down, yo!
People have hobbies, you know. Some people have Home Recording as hobby, some people have ProSound Recording as hobby. Gotta do something on sundays, especially if one got no dog nor cat to play with :D
(assumingly that "the event" as described has actually occurred , btw ;) )
 
cjacek said:
Actually it was a pretty sound statement that Dr. Zee made. I too am completely puzzled why people over at Pro Sound Web would make and volunteer to take part in a stupid, unreliable test such as the one you speak of. It's not rocket science that when you take part in such a mass "test" that you're hearing a wav or an mp3, which cannot fully represent the source analog signal.

Nothing "stupid" or "unreliable" about it at all. Everyone WAS there and heard the source material for themselves. No mp3s.
 
MCI2424 said:
Nothing "stupid" or "unreliable" about it at all. Everyone WAS there and heard the source material for themselves. No mp3s.

You mean to tell me that the hundreds of members of the said forum, who were unbiased and objective, were invited to partake in a test at some guy's studio ? I find this highly questionable and the methods suspect.
 
Good Friend said:
Its pretty strange that people could care more about how they get there rather than where they are going.

Dont you find that the hardest part of recording and making music lies in the performance and the songs rather than in the differences in sound between mediums? I usually dont like the way new records sound, even though they seem very clear and hifi. With really low lows and high highs. But when i was a younger person and i loved a song i didnt care if i had it on twice duplicated cassette as long as i could play it and listen to it.

Arguing over what sounds better to capture art is like arguing over who is a better music critic. Either way youre still just a barnacle on the ass of the real talent, the songwriter and the musician. Id strive for more if i was you. Besides, how much pride can you take in some other mans design and engineering? Unless you yourself built the machine you are using i dont see how you could take so much pride in it that it would eclipse the task at hand, which is making music people will enjoy. This is not a flame or an insult or an attempt to sound smarter than anyone here. Because i dont know what you know and i know that my experience is pretty limited when it comes to recording. But i do know this, if an idea of mine is any good at all it will sound appealing no matter how i record it, but if an idea of mine sucks no amount of polishing or fidelity ever seems to fix it. No effects no nothing. So stressing over which 35 thousand dollar machine (that i could never have built myself) out performs which seems pretty lame.

You know, i sometimes come here to read what people are saying about things but i get depressed often. Because reading arguments about which 5 thousand dollar monitoring system is "junk" or which 25 thousand dollar recorder is "useless" makes me feel like the entire point of art has been lost. You may argue that recording is about capturing art, but i personally wouldnt ever want to record with an engineer or producer whos concern was in the specs and technical BS. I think recording records takes a bunch of artists who specialize in different things working together. And art was never and never will be about 1s and 0s or tape width or anything like that. Im sorry to bum you out but thats just fact. 1s and 0s dont make people tap their toe.

Somehow things get lost in translation.

There are artists and there are engineers. Artist (primary transduction artists) Make the music. Engineers (secondary transduction artists) mix and capture the music into a cohesive statement. The two are totally different forms of art.

The equipment used for primary transduction artists are the guitars, amps, pedels, keyboards etc. with a whole world dedicated to it (guitar magazine etc.). The equipment used by secondary transduction artists are the taped decks, mixers, compressors, eqs etc. There is a whole world deicated to it also.

I hate when people mix the two forms of artistry up and make a blank statement like : The performance is everything, without it the recording is bad reguardless of quality of equipment.

This kind of statement is stupid at best and shows total ignorance.

I have heard lousy performances recorded beutifully and great performances recorded lousy. This forum is the Home recording forum and NOT the home performance forum. We deal with sound and how to capture it. Whatever the sound, we don't care. Primary transduction artists MAKE these sounds we are capturing. So, equipment, along with experience is the whole goddamn thing.

Find me any post that really only concentrates on anything OTHER than equipment. This whole forum is about equipment and that includes HD and Tape recorders.

And, again. hit records are made by people and NOT Tascam or Studer. A good recording can have suck ass performances and vica-versa.

Knowing HOW to make a great recording is knowing how to seperate these elements and dealing with the real problem instead of lumping all the elements together and deciding that a shitty recording was from the lack of a great performance. Live records are made everyday and you can't tell me that every live record is a great recording if the performance is great because there are a boatload of great recordings of really shitty performances out there.
 
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