What makes a good song?

Here's what I can offer.

Lazyboy,
I think you are right on a certain level: The performance and the song are so closely tied that it's hard to seperate them. That's why so many covers stink.
However, think of a song like Yesterday by Paul McCartney. That is a good song, period. It has been covered by just about anybody you can name, and regardless of who performs it, it stands on its own merit.
So I think a song can be great of its own accord.
Aaron
http://www.aaroncheney.com
 
Lazyboy

Ness sings in his real voice, which adds to the honesty of the music.
I love voices like that. Paul Westerberg (The Replacements), Dave Pirner (Soul Asylum), and Tom Waits make me wish I'd taken up smoking.

I think most people who don't like Creed, like myself, find that the songs are ruined by the bands steamroller approach. Good songs can be wrecked by bad performances, and I think a few of Creed's could easily fall into this category. With Arms Wide Open sounds like a rose garden getting trampled by a herd of elephants.
 
Great post, James HE. I would just like to add that IMHO the stailey is by far the most sincere, emotionally honest, technically interesting and developed singing of the alt rock era. While there are a subpar immitators like godsmack, only one stailey will go down in history and that is the original.

Let me just point something out here about songwriting that I dont think was mentioned on this post. Vocal phrasing is huuuuuuugely important. Seeing as how the mainstream ear has a limited capacity in dealing with unfamiliar chord changes especially if theyre dissonant and dont resolve on the tonic, creating interesting phrasing that screws around with the listeners expectations is a major area of play where you can be original and accessable at the same time.

While I am not a fan of rap, a major reason for its commercial success in recent years has to do with its ingenious vocal phrasing. Same goes for R&B. Creative, rhythmically interesting, unexpected and syncopated twists in the vocal phrasing. One of the reason why rock has SUCKED in the last few years has to do with this point. A complete lack of imagination in the vocal phrasing. Every chord changes on a predictable downbeat and every vocal turn changes with it. I would bet all the gear in all the studios of the members of homerecdotcom that 99% of musicians in todays rock bands could not play 4 bars of syncopated 16th notes, emphasizing the "Es" and "Uhs." There is no contrast rhythmically between the vocals and guitar and drums. I dont think there was a time when rock was less developed and less interesting to listen to than it is now. Granted Im only 25 but everything Ive heard from the 50s till '94 was more interesting emotionally and musically.

Let me make a prediction. The next sound in rock will totally reject the current crop of shite and veer away from standard 2/4 beats toward more varied drumming and toward greater contrast between guitar, drums and vocals. The successful bands will be the ones with the creative vocal phrasing.

And for the record companies out there reading this post, feel free to contact me for more on this topic and for guidance on what to sign to your labels. So far you have basically destroyed rock and have totally fallen down on the job of signing anything with vision and so are paying the price bec of that. Nobody is interested in rock. (rap metal is not rock and will go the way of glam rock as they have equal amounts of intelligent writing and empty posteuring) Creed is one of the biggest rip offs in the history of rock and if I were pearl jam or STP or alice in chains I would absolutely sue for copyright infringement. How wou people can take such a blatantly unoriginal band seriously is beyond me.

It is entirely possible that the days of the big record company is over as the home rec studio is hugely on the rise and although 99% of music out there blows hard the 1% of dynamic, original and disciplined artists who are involved with all aspects of their music (writing, performing and recording) will very likely lead the way as they dont have mindless, herd mentality A&R guys looking over their shoulders, stripping their music of all things original.
 
Here's what I can offer

Yes Pilgrim!
I agree whole-heartedly w/ your points about vocal phrasing and the rythmic structure of music. I love it when someone can actually quantify something we all have known but been unable to express.
If you listen to '70's funk tunes, it's not just the instruments that are funking, (i.e., hitting the eeh's and uhh's) it's the vox too.
I have also noticed this w/ guitarists. Think about Eddie Van Halen, probably the most popular rock guitarist of last century. (Yeah, I know...Hendrix, Clapton, etc, etc, etc,... Just let me make my point!) he used 90 percent pentatonic and blues scales, but he put the notes together in such rhythmically interesting ways! Listen to the syncopated leads on Somebody Get me a Doctor or Jump or .......
Anyway, I completely agree on that point.
Aaron
http://www.aaroncheney.com
 
Yeah, Eddie is a great example of a guy who is firstly a hardcore musician who worked his material through and had a huge imagination for rhythmic variety. See...thats the dif bet him and say a guy like kirk hammet who rhythmically does the same linear straight ahead 16th note solos whenever james hetfield points to him and says "solo, kirk, solo." You get no weird accents, nothing out of the ordinary in terms of key shifts (I dont even play guitar btw but his lack of musicality is what is so kirk hammety about his sound to my ear).

70s funk definitely had the interesting groove thing going, BEHIND the singer. As opposed to exactly WITH the singer. I never got into that stuff emotionally but musically its interesting. Check out Mr Bungle for some mind blowing writing in terms of key shifts, great grooves where the drums bass and keyboard are all doing one totally cohesive groove but totally dif things in terms of time. Also, his vocal phrasing where he constantly shifts on and off the beat is really creative. Alot of good phrasing is about how the vocals lay on the groove.

I personally write alot of songs with the drums first. Usually a 3/4 -4/4 shifting kind of beat and then vocals on top of that varying and adapting punches as I go along. All this without any music or very sparse music. This is essentially the skeleton of the song and everything fits itself into that structure. This isnt the only way to get interesting phrasing but if you are constantly aware of the drums and think about them as your reference point, interesting things will start happening.
 
If I hear a song in a genre that I don't normally like and think 'hey thats pretty good' then THAT must be a good song. At the moment there is a song called 'Butterfly' by Crazytown that I just love, and I am a Black Sabbath,Van Halen type of guy, and this is - what? Rap,Hip-hop - I don't know and I don't care, it's just a great song, why analyse it?
 
Analyzing what makes a song good and what makes a song bad helps you understand what works and what doesnt. Melodies, chords, key changes and time in mainstream music are not all that diffirent from each other. Songs that work in one genre will probably work in another with a variation on tempo, instrumentation or phrasing. Theres been hundreds of songs translated from dance to rock to r&b to jazz to blues and back the other way. There ARE core concepts that that you find in good songs and isolating those points WILL make you a better songwriter.
 
What a great subject!

So,

What makes a good song:

Well to me it is something that is highly original, a song that doesn't have a predictable chord pattern or melody.

Creed, 3 doors down, nickleback, seven mary three, stone temple pilots ALL sing "THE VEDDER" well let me tell you something, I gave up "THE VEDDER" in 1993. And I wish these other bands, esp. Creed would give up these Vedder machniations. That lead singer from creed, you know the guy without any bone in his nose. He dresses like his hero Jim Morrison and sounds like his teenage hero Eddie Vedder and I can't stomach another Creed song! What a pretentious jerk!

A song that is highly original might be "I am the Walrus" by Mr. Lennon, a great orignal melody and instrumentation but the lyrics are just strange nonsensical ramblings. Does that make it bad? Hell, no it adds to the weird ambiance it provokes.

Aaron is correct when he says that Garageband has many mediocre songs on it, I have found the greatest quantities of songs on there sound like average Blink 182 pseduo "punk" songs or "Creedesque" type exercises. I have noticed that the production and performance is pretty good on these recordings.

It seems that quality musicians are a dime a dozen, however I believe brilliant original songwriters are a much rarer breed and of the 242 songs I have reviewed on Gararageband, I have only given maybe 6 songs a full 5 out of 5 rating.

Thanks for listening,

Roy
 
What If?

The song "What If" by Creed,

When i first heard it I thought I was being played a Stone Temple Pilots song of their first or second album. I couldn't believe another band could sound so much like them!

So:

Pearl Jam develop into Stone Temple Pilots who develop into Creed who develop into Seven Mary Three.

I guess cloning is alive and up and running. Why i bet Eddie Vedder is pissed as hell!
 
I guess I am stuck in another era....I don't know half the bands you folks are talkin about?
As a matter of fact...I still got "records".
This is a fun subject though.....I am just trying to get back into writing songs...it has been along time.
I always liked to play my own stuff...the problem was, nobody liked to listen. This computer stuff is great...garageband.com.....homerecording.com....go figure?
 
When you say "Creed" I think "Cream"
When you say" Eddie Veeder" I am thinking of "Eddie Cockran" (summertime blues, pink pegged slacks etc.)
Oh well....I been away for a long time.
 
Mono-Man, great music stands the test of time, so don't worry about it, most people here know who Cream and Eddie Cochran were. Despite being a hard rock fan, I would have BB King's 'Live at the Regal' album in my all time top ten, and it was recorded in 1962, plus I have some Elmore James stuff from the fifties that just makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck (unfortunately I don't have any where it's supposed to be :-))
 
What makes a good song? If the STANDARD is set by record sales and it sold ten zillion records than it's a good song. If the STANDARD is set by how it effects YOU, and you like it...then it's a good song. My feeling is this: We, as part of the human race, are more alike than opposite. I know, we all want to be different and unique. But we are all basically the same. I don't mean in the physical sense but, the soul or spiritual. (e.g. How most people felt when Mark McGuire hit his 70th dinger! ) Usually, great music that has stood the test of time had an element that most people can associate with. It stikes a "chord", (pardon the pun) with most people. It may be how the chord structure is established or the melody line or a combination of the two. I think most successful songwriters have the ability to communicate with the rest of us. How can someone have that ability? Maybe they are blessed by our Creator or maybe they just know the Root of how we behave and feel. Later....Den
 
Dr. Den
Yes that is correct...through one man sin entered the world and through the Perfect Lamb Jesus Christ we are healed.
We are created in our Makers image (Spirit and soul), are spirits dead from the fall, and reborn again through Christ...this is why we are to sing spiritual songs and hymns, Psalms (Col. 3:16) and thankfulness always to God.
I wonder how many really think of their gift as from God?
Sorry if I got off subject, but you inspired me.
 
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