What is all the hype with a matched pair of mics

[timboZ]

What is all the hype with a matched pair of mics?
I think a matched set of mic pre's would benefit you more.
Can you buy a matched set of mic pres?

 

[Harvey Gerst]

What is all the hype with a matched pair of mics?
I think a matched set of mic pre's would benefit you more.
Can you buy a matched set of mic pres?

The Great River and the RNP are matched, if you want to use that term.

As far as matching mics, that concept is a little more difficult when you're dealing with transducers, since mics convert acoustical energy into electrical energy. That's harder to match. Now, if one of two mics used in a stereo recording has a peak, every time a note comes along that excites that peak, the stereo image will shift to the output of that mic.

Imagine listening to a stereo recording of an acoustic guitar, recorded with one of the mics having a peak in the audible range. Every time that note is played, it will sound like the guitarist got up and moved several feet to one side, just to play that note, and then moved back to the center position for the rest of the song.

It may not be as important if you're recording a home demo or the instrument will sit in a busy mix, but matched microphones are pretty important for recording classical piano, solo acoustic guitars, string quartets, or classical music in general.

Simply put, well-matched microphones keep the stereo image from jumping around when recording in stereo.

 

[xstatic]

How would a matched pre help? Wouldn't that just serve to point out the differences in the mics?

 

[Innovations]

obviously if the mics aren't matched then the a matched pre is not going to help. and vice-versa too.

BTW It would seem to me that to make a difference of several feet on a note the two mics would have to be quite badly matched.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

obviously if the mics aren't matched then the a matched pre is not going to help. and vice-versa too.

BTW It would seem to me that to make a difference of several feet on a note the two mics would have to be quite badly matched.

I've heard reports that the older Oktava MC012's from Guitar Center had as much as 10dB variations in frequency response. That would cause the shift I pointed out.

 

[xstatic]

I believe that about the Oktava mics. I still think they are a great bang for the buck (especially the mc012's) but he consistency and qualitycontrol was certainly about as bad as it gets.

 

[acorec]

I believe that about the Oktava mics. I still think they are a great bang for the buck (especially the mc012's) but he consistency and qualitycontrol was certainly about as bad as it gets.

Not to rain on your parade, but, considering the *millions* of Oktava mics sold in just the last year alone, how many have you heard about that were bad? A few people on this BBS have had a bad experience. I have bought 12 of them (most different models) and tried over 70 mics to find the ones I liked. I did not find a bad one in the batches that I tried. I contend that very few people actually got a bad mic, and they seem to post hundreds of times about the *same* experience. I love the Oktavas and say that there are no better mics period in their pricerange.

 

[Innovations]

I've heard reports that the older Oktava MC012's from Guitar Center had as much as 10dB variations in frequency response. That would cause the shift I pointed out.

Well yes, 10 db would, but that was a particularly bad example of erratic quality control. Most mics are WAY more consistent than those.

I wanted to dispel the notion that you shouldn't even think of serero micing except with a matched pair. I have recorded choirs and small ensembles with an ORTF pair of MXL93Ms and there is no jumping around of players or notes, and I do not think that I was exceptionally lucky in that pair.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Not to rain on your parade, but, considering the *millions* of Oktava mics sold in just the last year alone, how many have you heard about that were bad? A few people on this BBS have had a bad experience. I have bought 12 of them (most different models) and tried over 70 mics to find the ones I liked. I did not find a bad one in the batches that I tried. I contend that very few people actually got a bad mic, and they seem to post hundreds of times about the *same* experience. I love the Oktavas and say that there are no better mics period in their pricerange.

I don't think sales are in the "millions", but I fully agree that good MC012s are one of the best values around. I was one of the first engineers to review the Oktavas some years ago, and I took a lot of flak from other engineers for my recommendations of these mics back then.

But the quality control at Oktava was spotty at best, and buying one at GC was a crap shoot. You took your chances and hoped for the best. I don't know for sure that their QC has recently improved, or by how much, so I still remain a bit skeptical until proven wrong.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Well yes, 10 db would, but that was a particularly bad example of erratic quality control. Most mics are WAY more consistent than those.

I wanted to dispel the notion that you shouldn't even think of serero micing except with a matched pair. I have recorded choirs and small ensembles with an ORTF pair of MXL93Ms and there is no jumping around of players or notes, and I do not think that I was exceptionally lucky in that pair.

No, that was a typical example of QC for older Oktavas. MXL seems to have less problems with consistent QC. All the pairs I own of those mics are within about 1 or 2dB of each other. I suspect that's true of the Studio Projects mics on average as well.

 

[cominginsecond]

Not to rain on your parade, but, considering the *millions* of Oktava mics sold in just the last year alone, how many have you heard about that were bad? A few people on this BBS have had a bad experience. I have bought 12 of them (most different models) and tried over 70 mics to find the ones I liked. I did not find a bad one in the batches that I tried. I contend that very few people actually got a bad mic, and they seem to post hundreds of times about the *same* experience. I love the Oktavas and say that there are no better mics period in their pricerange.

AMEN!!

The Oktava QC rumors are so, so, so overblown. I've owned and/or played with 12, and they've all been within 3db of each other and all sounded relatively the same.

I think what may have happened is that they had problems to begin with, that they've since corrected, but that the reputation they had initially stuck. I guess I just wish people would base their comments on recent experience with these mics, and not on rumor or on problems Oktava may have had a few years ago.

 

[DJL]

For critical stereo recording... matched mics are best.

Also... about this Oktava QC discussion...

I have MC-319's and MC-012's that I got from the SoundRoom and Musicians Friend... and I haven't had any QC problems... but again, just the other day someone posted that they got a new MC-012 that was crappy. So, I think Harvey's QC heads-up is called for.

 

[xstatic]

I stand 100 % by my statement. The fact that you would have to listen to 70 mics just to find some that sounded alike shows absolutely horrid quality control. My comment had absolutely nothing to do with anything I have read on this BBS or any other. It is 100% based on experience. I bought 12 OKtava mics (less than 12 months ago so yes, my experiences are recent). None of them really sound as close to matched as any AKG451's or Shure sm81's or darned near any other mic out there that I am aware of. I understand that I didn't buy them as matched pairs, and thats OK. Personally, I don't even care that they sound different. I personally like mics to sound a little different because it allows me to have more options further down the road. However, this thread was about matched mics, and to an extent matched pre's. You could go out and buy two mics off the shelf made by any reputable manufacturere now adays at different ends of the country and find that they are very close to one another. The Oktava's you just can't do that to. So, not only did I buy 12 of them, but 5 of the clips did not thread properly on mic stands. Yet I still am not unsatisfied. I still find them to be an incredible bargain. But to stand up and defend their quality control? thats just silly when the track record is out there speaking for itself. I am not trying to put Oktava down as a company, but the truth is the truth is the truth. They have done it to themselves. Does that mean that I won't buy any other Oktava mics ever? Nope. If the right deal comes along, I gladly will. I just won't expect the same quality control and consistency I expect from all the other companies out there.

BTW, I also owned a pir of 319's for a little while. They too were FAR from matched. I put a marking on one so I would know which one sounded like which and use them appropriately based on that knowledge and the source signal I wanted to capture. Iwas never upset about this because it meant I had more options available, more tools. I would however have been absolutely pissed if I had needed them to be similar (which a buyer should be ably to blindly expect with currently manufactured microphones). In fact, I would have felt extrememly ripped off since many places will not allow the return of microphones.

 

[cominginsecond]

This post is misrepresenting what Acorec and I said. Acorec never said that he got 70 and that he had to get 70 to get them matched. He said that he got 70 to get the two that were most matched. He also noted that none of those 70 were bad, contrary to what a bunch of people on the web say.

Not only that, but you're pitting your personal experience against Acorec's and I's and saying that yours is "the truth." It's not. It's just another experience out there.

Also, I wasn't saying that their QC was wonderful, but if you were to believe a lot of what's out there on the internet, you'd think that buying an Oktava off the shelf was a gamble on par with buying a used car (Harvey said "a crap shoot.") It's not even comparable. If you buy an MC012 off the shelf, you will have an overwhelming chance of getting the best SDC available for under $400. It really bothers me how much negative attention these mics get when, in my experience, it is unwarranted.

 

[DJL]

This post is misrepresenting what Acorec and I said. Acorec never said that he got 70 and that he had to get 70 to get them matched. He said that he got 70 to get the two that were most matched. He also noted that none of those 70 were bad, contrary to what a bunch of people on the web say.

Not only that, but you're pitting your personal experience against Acorec's and I's and saying that yours is "the truth." It's not. It's just another experience out there.

Also, I wasn't saying that their QC was wonderful, but if you were to believe a lot of what's out there on the internet, you'd think that buying an Oktava off the shelf was a gamble on par with buying a used car (Harvey said "a crap shoot.") It's not even comparable. If you buy an MC012 off the shelf, you will have an overwhelming chance of getting the best SDC available for under $400. It really bothers me how much negative attention these mics get when, in my experience, it is unwarranted.

That was very well said... and I think there have been more problems posted on this bbs with Studio Projects mics than Oktava mics... but, maybe someone other than I should point that out... lol.

 

[xstatic]

First, I fail to see how I misrepresented anything. Acorec himself stated that he tried 70 mics to find two that he liked. I din't misrepresent that in any way shape or form. I stand by the fact that if you need to listen to 70 mics to find a pair that you like, thats not a good sign.

Second, I never said that any of the Oktava mics I or anyone else have had were bad. I didn't even mention anything about Oktava mics being bad, but in many ways defended them in stating that I would actually buy more of them.

Third, yes, I did pit my experience against the expereinces of others. Does that make it invalid because it doesn't match yours? I never mentioned in my post anywhere about anyone else's experiences on the internet, in real life, or anywhere else. But, since you have opened the door, yes there are TONS of people out there who feel the same way I do. In Oktava's defense however, they don't seem to care either. They accept the fact that they got a good sounding mic for $100. But if I had the same issues that the Oktava's had when buying a nice mic, I (and many other people as well) would take real issue to that.

Bottom line.... Please stop taking offense to what I have to say, none of it was directed at any individual. I find Oktava's quality control to be quite a bit less than that of many other companies. That doesn't mean their product is bad, especially when you factor in the cost to performance ratio. But to pretend that the problems that are there don't exist? To me that is misleading. Its like the sales rep at the local ma and pop store trying to sell me a Crate guitar amp and tell me it sounds just like a Marshall. The real reason of course being that they don't carry Marshall. I choose to call it how I see it (and believe me, I am not the only one who sees it this way), the OKtava mics sound pretty decent for a sub $500 mic, but it is not unreasonable at all to have certain issues. I haven't had any of mine break, so they are somewhat durable, but come on, 14 mics that all sound pretty seriously different (some of them, some are closer) and 5 mic clips that just won't work? Thats a lack of quality control any way you look at it. If I was shopping for something like an AKG 451, or a Neumann Km series mic, I would probably have to audition 70 mics just to find 2 that were really all that different. Just like MOTU. There are lots of people who have had some pretty serious problems with MOTU stuff, but I still have mine Steinberg is another good example with their many reports of horrible customer service, but I am still running Nuendo, and have no plans to change.

 

[Giganova]

"Matched pair" doesn't necessarrly imply the 2 best out of a batch (BTW: 70 mics?? Where did you get 70 mics from??). You can match the 2 worst, the 2 second worst, etc. "Matched" doesn't mean perfect, right?

BTW: may stereo pres allow to link the two channels. That means that the two channels must be fairly matched -- hopefully.

 

[acorec]

First, I fail to see how I misrepresented anything. Acorec himself stated that he tried 70 mics to find two that he liked. I din't misrepresent that in any way shape or form. I stand by the fact that if you need to listen to 70 mics to find a pair that you like, thats not a good sign.

Second, I never said that any of the Oktava mics I or anyone else have had were bad. I didn't even mention anything about Oktava mics being bad, but in many ways defended them in stating that I would actually buy more of them.

Third, yes, I did pit my experience against the expereinces of others. Does that make it invalid because it doesn't match yours? I never mentioned in my post anywhere about anyone else's experiences on the internet, in real life, or anywhere else. But, since you have opened the door, yes there are TONS of people out there who feel the same way I do. In Oktava's defense however, they don't seem to care either. They accept the fact that they got a good sounding mic for $100. But if I had the same issues that the Oktava's had when buying a nice mic, I (and many other people as well) would take real issue to that.

Bottom line.... Please stop taking offense to what I have to say, none of it was directed at any individual. I find Oktava's quality control to be quite a bit less than that of many other companies. That doesn't mean their product is bad, especially when you factor in the cost to performance ratio. But to pretend that the problems that are there don't exist? To me that is misleading. Its like the sales rep at the local ma and pop store trying to sell me a Crate guitar amp and tell me it sounds just like a Marshall. The real reason of course being that they don't carry Marshall. I choose to call it how I see it (and believe me, I am not the only one who sees it this way), the OKtava mics sound pretty decent for a sub $500 mic, but it is not unreasonable at all to have certain issues. I haven't had any of mine break, so they are somewhat durable, but come on, 14 mics that all sound pretty seriously different (some of them, some are closer) and 5 mic clips that just won't work? Thats a lack of quality control any way you look at it. If I was shopping for something like an AKG 451, or a Neumann Km series mic, I would probably have to audition 70 mics just to find 2 that were really all that different. Just like MOTU. There are lots of people who have had some pretty serious problems with MOTU stuff, but I still have mine Steinberg is another good example with their many reports of horrible customer service, but I am still running Nuendo, and have no plans to change.

The reason I went through so many mics (all on different occasions) was that I had read what Harvey said about the Oktava QC problems. I cannot say that anyone is wrong in what they found. However, I must point out that people might be mislead in the *causes* of their experience. I bought all my mics on sale. The shipments came in and my salesguy let me open the boxes with him (yes, I buy alot and only from this guy). What happens at GC is that people will bring back a mic that is bad. Then, the salespeople usually put them right back on the shelf. As the good mics leave, the bad ones stay. Finally, as the stock dwindles, there are only crappy ones left.

GC gets shipments in the hundreds. Out of the box. I can say that I never saw a bad mic. There were mics that were different for sure, but nothing really what I would call bad. I just have the opportunity to match the best I can, while I can. If this salesguy leaves, I am stuck with the "off-the-shelf" like eveybody else. In a single weekend, my GC has sold almost 1000 Oktava mics. Of those, maybe a dozen returned for many reasons. They go back on the shelf if they pass a signal. Maybe this is why some people get really screwed. If I were the one to get the bottom of the barrel, maybe I would hate Oktava too.

 

[acorec]

"Matched pair" doesn't necessarrly imply the 2 best out of a batch (BTW: 70 mics?? Where did you get 70 mics from??). You can match the 2 worst, the 2 second worst, etc. "Matched" doesn't mean perfect, right?

BTW: may stereo pres allow to link the two channels. That means that the two channels must be fairly matched -- hopefully.

I bought 6 pairs of MC012, 1 pair of 319s, 1- 219, an ML-52 and a MKL2500 Tube. I bought these at different sales. So, I auditioned mics on at least 5 different occasions. All of my mics are great and I use them pretty much all the time.

 

[xstatic]

Thank you Acorec for explaining a little more. I am not sure I can really change my stance based on a couple of things. I too get the special treatment at my Guitar Center. My mics never made it to the shelf because I also have the manager there take personal care of me and my purchases. So none of my mics were ever even on display. Secondly, that doesn't happen at the Guitar Center I shop at because they won't let customers return mics. It also doesn't explain the mic clip issue ( which there isn't a lot of recourse for).

I never anywhere (at least to my knowledge) said that I had gotten, or even heard of anyone getting a "bad" mic. I thought I had been very delicate and clear in explaining why I view Oktava's quality control as poor, and tried to make it clear that this quality control issue does not detract for the value shown by OKtava mics through a balance of sound quality and price.

My statement of Oktava's qualtiy control was based purely on the inconsistency of the sound of the mics themselves, and the fact that 5 out 12 mic clips (from when I bought my Oktava's didn't work properly). A company needs to at least be able to make the mic clips properly! When I consider that of the 12 sm81's that we have and the 8 AKG 451's match up closer picking them randomly out of my mic boxes, purchased with several years between some, mics sound more similar, that shows a quality control problem. I have Oktava's that sound more differnt than matching one of our vintage AKG 451's to a reissue. Yet I never regretted purchasing the Oktava's.