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Bstrom
Member
I went through many cameras and lenses over the years while upgrading into digital, etc. and leaving film behind that was justifiable. Not so with audio gear in the digital world.
DrewPeterson7
Sage of the Order
I'd say, rather, that it's hugely important, but we're seeing the interaction of two things:
1) the tone you want from your guitar recording itself is hugely subjective, and
2) Most of us haven't extensively tried thousands of different guitar/mic/preamp combinations, so we're limited by the experiences we have (and, to a degree, knowing particular recordings we've heard were done with particular gear and then trying to get as close to that as possible).
I did find this helpful even if it's hard to REALLY do A/B.../Y comparisons with different takes of an acoustic guitar, considering how damned touch sensitive they are:
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/choosing-the-best-microphone-for-acoustic-guitar-32-mic-shootout/
PorterhouseMusic
Well-known member
Agree.
And I am just now at that point in my relative experience with home recording using the gear that I've accumulated to start making informed judgments on what gtr/mic/preamp combos seem to work well in a given situation - whether for my own project or someone else's (<---apostrophe there? I think yes).
It seems intuitive - and I assume not a surprise to the more experienced folks - but I am starting to see that while there are some reliable go-to starting points that will work well enough in any number of situations - the particular player setup in a particular room (and even placement and attitude in the room) with a particular guitar, mic, and preamp combo will yield more or less desirable results. I assume it's the same with acoustic drums - that when recording acoustic guitar - it seems to pay off to take a little time to try a few different things if you really want to optimize relative to your options. Yeah - that's sinking in with me. Now.
DrewPeterson7
Sage of the Order
Yeah, I've got definitely preferences for what works for what when recording what.
I'm, if anything, proud of myself for not JUST doing this all the time anymore, and when I can doing some experimentation first to see if maybe something else works a little better than my standard approach.
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Bstrom
Member
I agree but you can always mic with more than one type to get a comparison. Use an SM57 or other dynamic and your best condenser or ribbon to get a real read on what you're capturing - go for a clean, properly gained recording to assess your hardware capability. Headphones will help isolate the tonality and identitfy strengths and weaknesses of your signal.
I have recording notes on each track in a Pro Tools session with my concert and parlor Yamaha acoustics - and a few player's instruments and know what to expect. That's what I need when setting up for a session. It will take a lot of the guesswork out next time around. Saves time and gives predictable, repeatable results.
Only if you are really disappointed with your sound results should you consider upgrading your mics for this sensitive process. At that point, any well reviewed mic is going to do well once you use it for a while. It ain't rocket science!
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b1j
New member
My budget ceiling has room for one SDC pair and one LDC pair. I figure I’ll need to make scores of recordings before I ever go wanting for some missing quality in the sound. I seem to complete 3 or 4 songs per year, so that’s a long way off.
I also used Sweetwater’s Choosing the Best Mic shootout, but it was the one that came before the one you posted: maybe 2017? That shootout contained the sE Electronics sE8 SDC MIC. To my ears, it compared favorably with the Schoeps costing $2,000 ($4,000 for a pair). I got my matched pair, with stereo bracket and a sturdy case, for $500.
The shootout was geared toward acoustic guitar, and used a D-28 and a J-45. I listened as carefully as I knew how in Beyerdynamic open and closed back phones, and on my studio monitors. I heard differences that led to some clear preferences between one or another mic. But the Schoeps and the sE8, I could tell, recorded the exact same performance (same nuances of play), so I had as good a poor man’s A/B as I could get anywhere.
rob aylestone
Moderator
Remember that all mics sound different, but that every DAW has a perfectly decent EQ section that we all use when it gets to the point of making all the sounds, better and more suitable. If you buy X mic, and then accept you will change its sound to suit the song, why angst yourself in the teeny details. If you ‘test’ two mics, and a week later go back to the files and discover Cubase (my DAW) recorded them as track 1-1 and track 2-1, can you listen to one and say ah, this is the X mic and track 2 is Z mic. Dozens of my mic reviews have this problem. I have two recordings and without any clues, they are just different, not good and bad. There is no ‘best’ there is just ‘most suitable, this time, this instrument, in this recording space, with this player’. My advice would be to choose two mics that are very different. A mellow sounding pair and a bright sounding pair. Much more useful. My two favourite mics are the SM57 and the AKG 414. Both very different sounds, both really useful. I have other mics that sound similar to both. I don’t use them much!
Slouching Raymond
Well-known member
I would use the mics I have, which means NT1A.
rob aylestone
Moderator
That is exactly right, Raymond! I cannot say that despite being an idiot and collecting mics as a sort of hobby - I have never bought anything that was aa sudden quality jump, or something wonderful. Looking at the stuff in storage boxes that I put to one side all the time, none of them are bad. I have had two bad mics. One bad by design and now 60 years old that just sounds thin, and weedy, and one that hummed badly. My choice now is often based on how easy they are to get from the store - the bin at the top of the pile is always my favourite - there will always be something in that one I can use.
PorterhouseMusic
Well-known member
Because I enjoy lying to myself. Stop ruining all the fun!
DrewPeterson7
Sage of the Order
You can do that to a degree... it's not perfect since the capsules can only be next to each other and not in the same space, but for comparing two, maybe three, mics, you can make it work well enough.
When you try to do something like Sweetwater is doing and compare 20, though...
I think early on you can do this. my first condensers, a pair of AKG C1000s, made my acoustic guitar sound worlds better than anything I'd used on it before, and while it wasn't my first LDC, the sE4400as I use 80-90% of the time on strummed acoustic rhythm parts, especially in conjunction with the BAE 1073MP I bought at the same time, was a pretty significant step up in my recorded acoustic tone.
It gets harder though once you hit a certain baseline, and to your point it becomes more about finding the right "flavor" for a part and arrangement. And, even entry level gear is pretty damned good these days - I think back to my earliest recordings, in 1999, on a laptop sitting on the ground next to my amp and then "upgrading" to one of those old computer mics that look like a whammy bar. And then, how much better a Radio Shack knockoff SM57 plugged into my sound card's mic in with a 1/4"-1/8" adaptor sounded by comparison... and my first USB interface and how suddenly my sound card was no longer eating all the low end... And today, my dad's working on a pretty entry level Focusrite because he doesn't really have any interest in recording quality, he just wants to write music and share it with people. And... it's pretty good. It's wild how much things have changed.
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b1j
New member
Sweetwater used a 4-mic holder and placed the diaphragms within an inch of each other. These are just SDCs, so it was pretty compact. There was a photo of the setup in the 2017 version.
DrewPeterson7
Sage of the Order
Yeah, but that still means at least five seperate performances to get up to 20 comparisons. Electric guitars, it's a lot easier - record one performance, reamp it as many times as you need. Acoustics make it a lot trickier.
It's still doable - a good player, lots of preparation, careful measurement, and keeping things moving along and you can make good-enough comparisons, for sure. But it's much harder to do a scientifically rigorous A/B when you're working with more mics than you can conveniently place clustered around the same listening point.
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b1j
New member
Totally agree. That’s why I was pleased that the mic I most wanted to compare the sE8 to was used in the same performance.
PorterhouseMusic
Well-known member
Attn: @DrewPeterson7
This may be of interest to you - maybe not. But I just bought that WA87 R2 and was doing some mid-side acoustic gtr testing with it. Thought I'd share my results in case you or anyone else here might be interested in hearing. Falls into the category of "what's possible"
A couple of notes for clarity's sake:
- Setup was quick in the middle of my recording room (which I call "the stooge"). Acoustics aren't great in there - but not horrible either
- Guitar is my Taylor 414ce-R
- The mid mic here is the WA14 into a RND 5017 preamp - pointed at where the neck meets the body
- Side mic is the WA87 R2 into a TB12 preamp (set as clean as it can be) - inverted above and, of course, perpendicular to the WA14
- EQ is flat other than hi-pass on both preamps engaged and I did roll off everything under 60Hz to eliminate all the low funk info - no other processing
- Just a wee bit of verb on the mid mic
This may be of interest to you - maybe not. But I just bought that WA87 R2 and was doing some mid-side acoustic gtr testing with it. Thought I'd share my results in case you or anyone else here might be interested in hearing. Falls into the category of "what's possible"
A couple of notes for clarity's sake:
- Setup was quick in the middle of my recording room (which I call "the stooge"). Acoustics aren't great in there - but not horrible either
- Guitar is my Taylor 414ce-R
- The mid mic here is the WA14 into a RND 5017 preamp - pointed at where the neck meets the body
- Side mic is the WA87 R2 into a TB12 preamp (set as clean as it can be) - inverted above and, of course, perpendicular to the WA14
- EQ is flat other than hi-pass on both preamps engaged and I did roll off everything under 60Hz to eliminate all the low funk info - no other processing
- Just a wee bit of verb on the mid mic
DrewPeterson7
Sage of the Order
Interesting, I don't get nearly the same phase instability issues from this as I have when I've tried it myself, if I move my head back and forth in front of my speakers it isn't sort of going all hollow on me.
Also, this is killing me, I can hear the vocal melody on this, but I can't actually make it coalesce into actual words. What IS this, I know I know this song, that minor key modulation is such a familiar move...
Slouching Raymond
Well-known member
That does sound nice.
PorterhouseMusic
Well-known member
Not sure what you're connecting that to.... it's bits and pieces of musings from my yesteryear. Like 30 years ago yesteryear. Just used as testing filler. To be developed possibly. Later.
PorterhouseMusic
Well-known member
Yeah - I thought it came out pretty good considering it's straight mic'ing - no EQ, compression, or processing (other than high pass which is pretty "setup" standard I think). That was the point - to test the mics and the setup.
I tried it with the WA67 as the side mic as well. Also sounded good.
There's a couple adjustments I'll make later. I think. It sounds a little wee bit rich in the preamp gain - I think I can clean that up a little. And while the stereo bus meters were pretty even on play back - and it sounded good on the near-fields - the balance sounded a little weird to me with headphones. I'm probably nit-picking a little there - as I know that mid-side can have actual AND perceived balance issue depending on several factors.
DrewPeterson7
Sage of the Order
Dammit, lol, it really reminds me of something!
Well, it sounds great, in any event, and I'd be very curious what your workflow is - the side mic is in figure 8mode, right, and you duplicate, pan hard L/R, and flip phase on one of the sides? That always just caused huge phase cancellation for me...
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