vocals sitting in mix

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astoebe

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Hey, I looked around for old threads, and think I am safe in posting this. I am very happy with my recording sound I have gotten......except for the vocals. It's not that they aren't good, it's just that they are a little too up front and sticking out. One person suggested that I try recorded farther back from the mic, so I will try this, but also, I am having trouble with reverb. I have played around with it on piano and guitar tracks and had great results, but whenever I try to process the vocals it sounds awkward to me. I always end up frustrated and leaving the signal dry (well except for eq and compression) because I can't find anything that works....and then I always end up wishing the vocals would feel better in the mix. Am I working with just crappy reverb effects? (I am using what came with very cheap recording software). Should I try buying a DirectX plugin reverb thing? Do I just not know what I'm doing? If I should buy something, is there anything you would recommend? Is there any other techniques I should be using that would help me? Any advice here would be greatly appreciated....I feel like my vocals are the main thing holding my recorded songs back at the moment. Thanks for your help!
 
These are your vocals? Could it be that you are just to critical of yourself, and they seem too loud to you because they are yours? Maybe have someone else mix, or help with the mix...

I know for me, my vocals can never be quiet enough to satisfy me.
 
no, the number one criticism of my recordings is that my vocals are too up front and don't sit well. People (even my audio engineering professor) are very positive about the sound as a whole but always suggest working with reverb for my vocals......kinda frustrating because i'm trying to :)
 
I would say reverb is NOT a complete necessity for anything. Yeah, roll off the lows on your vocal track. Don't be afriad to apply major compression because after all, vocals are just about the most dynamic thing you'll have to deal with. Don't hit it so hard with compression that you kill it though. I tend to use more than one compressors on vocals set stragetically as opposed to hitting vocals with one very harsh compressor. That'll help. Also, sometimes a very light distortion can pop vocals out of a mix. As anyone will tell you, once you start hearing the effect, you're probably using too much.
 
A touch of reverb CAN make the vocals step back. I don't know what reverb you're trying to use, but with many reverbs, the presets need tweaking before they're acceptable.

Have you tried just turning the vocals tracks down, or cutting the highs on them a little?
 
Sometimes I'll send a vocal to an another track, put a small delay (set the mix to 100% so you hear only the delayed vocal) then add reverb to the delayed signal. Mix this track with the untouched vocal, mess around with the delay time, level of the delayed track, and amount of reverb until you find the magic combination. Another neat trick is to send a copy of the vocals through a guitar simulater with a little drive on it, and mix it with the dry signal at a very low level.
 
cool....i will try these suggestions....thanks for your help
 
I may add that if the vocals are too upfront you could try backing off slightly from the mic while tracking vocals. The mic is an ear and will act like one. If it hears something up close it will relay that to your recorder.
Esoterically speaking, the mic could be an ear and the recorder a brain, so to speak. The brain processes what the ear tells it.

Terry
 
vocal sitting too far in front

i found doing a mix check, in MONO, can help tell how things sit together.

Mono forces the masking/frequency crowding and volume levels of each track.
Once in MONO adjust the eq's until the tracks aren't fighting with each other as much....pleasently surprised when i went back to stereo with the previous pan settings. I had read about setting volume levels in MONO, it works for me.

granted, i have a button i can push and go from mono to stereo with ease, without changing my pan settings.
 
You said you've tried using reverb on the other instruments. If you are using it on the other tracks, that will automatically bring the vocals right up front. Try cutting back on the reverb on other instruments if you are doing that.

Also, use some pre delay on your reverb if it has it. This will keep the vocals clear and not washed out.
 
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the stereo panning, so i will!

Look at how your instruments are positioned in the stereo field. Maybe the 'centre' is cluttered/occupied by guitars for example, thus in order to make out the vocal you have to push the fader up high? But then the voc sounds way too loud? Sounds familiar?
So try moving those guitars/keyboard/whatever out left/right leaving space in the centre of the stereo field for the most important instrument, your voice.

Another technique is to start the mixing process with the vocal in the centre, and nothing else. Then bring in the instruments gradualy, left and right, making sure none of them masks the vocal. This way you may identify what is obscuring the vocal leading you to push the vocal fader up.

Adding reverb can help, someone on this board described reverb as 'the glue that binds the mix together'. But maybe you're adding too much effect and listening for an obvious change? Sometimes the best reverb is used in a really subtle way and unless you hear the vocal in isolation you can't tell it's even there, but it IS and makes a lot of difference to the blending of the voice into the music.

Like the other poster said, if your instruments are reverbed and the voice isn't then it will immediately make the voice stick out from the mix.

As you add a little reverb, take the vocal's fader down a little, because adding reverb boosts the volume.

Disclaimer: I'm no expert and only picked up this advice from others on discussion groups like this one, but i tried some of this myself and it works for me. Good luck.
 
"Is there any other techniques I should be using that would help me?"

i've found that using a liberal amount of lower ratio compression followed by a touch of higher ratio limiting helps the vocal 'sit better' in the mix. the compression smooths the vocal performance out, the limiting makes sure it sits down when it tries to get up.

for processing: a short delay can really help in this regard where reverb can some times bury ya. try something short maybe even with some feedback/regeneration thrown in - you don't have to get elvis with it -stick it under the vocal. if you don't have a delay try a short verb and play with the predelay time.

also - don't know your mic choice - but an SM7 can be your pal.

good luck...i have to admit - vocal balance is a rough one for me too...especially since ditching my once-loathed ns10's. :( :eek: :mad: :D

whoa... emoticon fit...

Pax,
Mike
 
COOLCAT said:
i found doing a mix check, in MONO, can help tell how things sit together.

Mono forces the masking/frequency crowding and volume levels of each track.
Once in MONO adjust the eq's until the tracks aren't fighting with each other as much....pleasently surprised when i went back to stereo with the previous pan settings. I had read about setting volume levels in MONO, it works for me.

granted, i have a button i can push and go from mono to stereo with ease, without changing my pan settings.
Click to expand...

I've been doing the same technique (mono check) for years now and it really helps (once I understood it and got used to it). My console has a mono switch so it makes it very easy for me as well. When I switch to mono I listen to make sure that the main vocal is either even or just slightly above the kick and snare volume.

If you want to reference an album you like in mono, do it. You'll understand it a bit better. Generally I notice that the kick, snare, and vocals are the loudest when monitoring in mono for the majority of albums I own and like.

Subtractive EQ can help if the vocal sounds too separate. Although just focusing on the vocals might not be the end-all. Most of it has to do with the other instruments surrounding the vocal and where everything "fits" tonally. I tend to stay away from outboard or plug-in reverbs as much as possible (for any instrument, including the vocal). I do use room sound with vocals sometimes but that can sound hollow in certain applications (proximity effect). Mostly I'll use two mics for vocals, one close up and another mic a good 8 inches or more away from the first mic (slightly elevated or slightly lowered) and then mix them together accordingly.

David Bowie used two mics, one close and one far far away, the far mic would be gated so when he sang loudly it would open up the room sound. Nirvana's "In Utero" also did this but with a close mic and a PZM mic on the floor several feet away. They were using acoustically treated rooms for such techniques tho (not vocal booths or small carpeted rooms). Phasing can get kinda strange in certain rooms with certain mics.... etc...

If you get nice clear vocal tones then it's just a matter of volume tweaks especially if you don't want them to sound like they're saturated with an effect. It took quite a long time before I narrowed down how to approach vocals in a mix. It's trial and error (it mostly seemed like 'error' to me) but it's a relative thing to each listener. I would think your professor would have better advice, would take the time to sit down and help you by showing different tricks, or let him or her mix it in to their taste just so you can get an idea.

-- Adam Lazlo
 
As far as vocal reverb goes, getting the pre-delay right can make all the difference.

.
 
follow-up

so just a little follow up for you guys. I tried a few things and here is what I ended up doing that I liked

-I recorded farther back from the mic
-I rolled off the low end some
-I squeezed it a little more with the compression which really smoothed it out
-I used a seperate track for reverb that was 100% wet and played around with the levels for a while

so far so good, i think the vocals are sitting better and sound more natural with the mix.....thanks for the advice, i will keep working on it
 
The vocal presence range that I fiddle with is about 4-6 khz. Usually, if I'm knocking down a vocal (generally a back-up) a -6dB or so cut, swept around a little, will enable me to turn up the signal enough to be fully audible, without sounding out front. Give it a good squirt of 'verb, and, boom, instant distance.
 
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