Violn newby aged 74

R

Retired

Active member
Hi,

Turning 74 last August my lovely wife treated me to a brand new Hidersine Vivente violin and bow etc. I've never attempted to play an instrument before so this is a ballistic learning curve. My dream is to play "Lara's Theme" on a violin I make myself. Hopefully I can receive help from forum members in setting up a recording studio.

Kind regards, Colin.
 
Not to be rude, but whats your question? Are you wanting to learn how to play or to set up a recording studio. There’s three options you can go, and I highly recommend the latter two: analog setup, a Portastudio, or a computer with an interface. Then you need to think about mics, cables, stands, headphones, etc.
 
Plus, of course, the actual learning curve is dependent on your existing skills. That violin once mastered, will sound pretty nice, but in a typical room, with all hard walls and ceiling it can be quite painful until you master it. You also might make more progress if the room you are learning in is treated?

You also want to learn how to make traditional musical instruments? Wow - that's a big investment in very specific tools and equipment?
 
Hi Colin,
Welcome to the forum.
That's quite a lot to take on at once! We know you've never played an instrument before but do you have any experience in the other areas?
Any experience in recording, or in instrument making or any kind of wood work?

Having been down all of those roads, to some extent, I'd recommend picking one to focus on first.
Recording, learning to play, and instrument making are three pretty serious rabbit holes! :ROFLMAO:

Tell us more... I'm sure someone here can help, one way or the other.
 
Hi,

Not rude at all CrowsofFritz; I appreciate your reply and as I say I'm totally new to recording. I'm learning how to play the violin and can play Twinkle twinkle little star easily and I can also play the first two lines of the song "Lara's Theme" I can also play the scales on all four strings against an electronic tuner. I've just sent an enquiry email off to a guy selling a cheap laptop which should prove useful; I've got the Tascam and know how to record and playback using it; at the moment the only computer I have is in my office whereas I've created a seperate small studio to the rear of our bungalow which I'm setting up. I've got cheap headphones and mic but this is where I need help; the help I need is setting up the studio so that I can record and playback also play back directly using a mic; sorry if I seem vague but as a novice it's difficult knowing the right questions to ask but I'm stubborn once I start something and too stupid to know when to quit.

Thanks rob aylstone; I competed well with our local cats when I first started to play the violin but all the scratching and screeching is now well behind me and I'm making steady progress; ideally as I say I'd like to record my violin playing just to play back; with my violin on my shoulder it sounds a lot different to what others hear and already even at low volume playing back through the amp is proving a big help. The violin is lovely and cost quite a bit from a luthier who set it up including fitting strings costing over £100 so I won't need to keep trading up as I gain experience. Existing skills regarding violin playing and recording were zero only a short while ago but I'm a quick learner; learning to play the violin though won't be quick but enjoyable. I've already bought the new violin wood from Poland costing £110 and have a well equipped workshop where I can make tools and even machines; I'll add a few pictures of some of the things I enjoy doing.

Many thanks for the welcome Steenamaroo; very kind of you. Yes lots of experience in other areas; I'm a trained mechanical engineer taught by the old National Coal Board and a proper engineer not just a fitter; I can make the parts to fit either in wood or metal. Two recent skills I've learned are Tig welding aluminium and metal spinning both very difficult to master but as I say I'm stubborn; I've been arc welding steel for almost 60 years but found welding aluminium very difficult indeed. I retired at the age of 50 in 2000 and adopted restoring vintage valve radios as a winter hobby knowing nothing of these; I've had over ten articles published and was honoured with top restoration award in 2009 by The British Vintage Wireless Society; I'm not electrically trained but I can do electrics having learned over the years; I installed 3 phase 415VAC into my workshop years ago costing under £120 by rewinding a huge welding transformer and used this to power my big engineering and woodturning lathes plus industrial bandsaw until I downsized.

I can do furniture making both fitted and free standing; I enjoy woodturning and restoring old machinery; my sawbench I made it being 4hp single phase. My Graduate woodturning lathe and Lorch Schmidt engineering lathes were bought as scrap and rebuilt also with upgrades to variable speed and much bigger motors. I have extensive cabinetmaking skills so I'll enjoy having a go at making a violin. I'm not at all smart or clever but I was taught the old fashioned way to use my head and hands. This is just a bit of my story and now I'm interested in music. I don't want to spend a fortune on kit but I do have funds available taking into account all this is a hobby and not a career to me.

A few pictures included of things I do and make. The first picture Delamination is a TV I fully restored; IM 4129 is the finished cabinet with new veneer and french polished. Front entrance and bungalow front woodork all my work. Front room makeover I enjoyed doing. Metal spinning and Tig welding aluminium. The very rare and now expensive Lorch lathe I restored & the Graduate lathe I restored. As I say I'm not smart or clever just taught by highly skilled mining engineers in an old fashioned apprenticeship.

I know little of musical instruments but when I first married 45 years ago my wife and I visited a second hand store and hanging on the wall was a very old battered violin; at the time we were struggling with a huge mortgage so pointless asking how much the violin was; I've now got three violins; I hope this gives an idea of what I enjoy doing; there's no such thing as can't do it in my life. Recording studio next with learning to play a violin and to make a violin; I'll get there however long it takes.

I tend to ramble on a bit but I'm never bored; 74 years old and just felled and disposed of 15 huge trees in just under two weeks working on my own; I never want to grow up.

Please bear with me whilst I show my ignorance of music and ask all the very basic questions.


Delamination..jpgFront entrance.JPGMakeover (1).JPGMetal spinning._0003.JPGMK 2 mower tank._0002_05.JPGGuards yet to install..JPGIMG_4129.jpgIMG_6823.JPG

Kind regards, Colin.
 
Welcome Colin.
Wow, that is some set of skills you have.
I made a guitar once. You can see it at romeobravo.net
Making an instrument is a great challenging project.
All I know about violins is the top and bottom are carved out of a solid block, so you have to concentrate on thickness, and not digging too deep.
It may take a few practice runs, to get the hang.
I've been playing guitars for some decades, and still learning, but I remember the feeling I had when playing my first tune successfully.
Recording your violin needn't cost much, and a decent mic would probably be a good start. Maybe a cheap large diaphram with a USB connector, would be suitable.
Enjoy the journey. You'll get plenty of advice here.
 
Yes welcome Colin!
Metal Spinning! what a blast from my past!

I worked in Aerospace Engineering and Manufacturing for 40 years making Sheet Metal parts as well as machined parts.
There was a local company we got to do metal spinning and was a blast to watch... VERY much a learned Talent because of it being done mostly by hand and arm with roller ball and wheel tools while the metal spun furiously on a lathe (clamped to a form block) like it wants to eat you!

My only add to your quest is in terms of microphone, I would say focus on warmer neutral microphones such as a ribbon mic/dynamic instrument oriented mic or a very neutral condenser.

The ribbon is my first choice, but has the downfall of needing a lot of gain from a preamp unless you find a modern "active" style ribbon.

If you have a larger area to play and record in a typical condenser may work fine if you can get enough distance between you and the mic.
Up pretty close it is going to be pretty harsh, but might be tamed with EQ.
 
Thanks for the detailed introduction, Colin. Good to know you better! :)

With regard to the instrument making we're in a wonderful era with the sheer quantity of instructional videos out there.
When I first decided I wanted to make an acoustic guitar I also decided I didn't want to just have a go and see what happens.
I wanted it to be right first time. I spent quite a lot of time reading detailed information on forums and in books but there's nothing quite like watching someone do the thing.
Particularly for these acquired skills - Carving braces, hand bending sides, etc.

By the time I actually came to doing each task I almost felt like I'd already done it 100 times.

The main things that seemed critical with a guitar, in so much as you've ruined it if they are wrong, were the neck angle, bridge placement and fret positioning.
Thankfully you don't have to worry about those.
In that respect a violin would be a fairly forgiving instrument to make.

For the studio setup, you're certainly in the right place.
No one's going anywhere so ask away!
 
Your wood and metalworking skills are impressive, as is the collection.

If you don't want to learn with a teacher (like me) and can pick things up quickly - there are loads of play along videos on YouTube and if you have the right skills and a decent memory, then that's a great way to practice - and the killer of course is tuning. I play the double bass and you need to play stringed instruments a lot to teach your fingers the correct spacing so muscle memory kicks in and your fingers automatically get very close, every time. You also need to master advanced techniques like finger wobbles as early as you can. Traditionally, these don't even get mentioned in conventional music grades till you've done quite a lot, but if you get your tuning sorted early, and then learn to wobble the left hand properly, the sound of your playing goes up very quickly. As for recording it - some of your rooms are a decent size so I'd suggest spending modest amounts early on. Do you have a decent hifi that sounds really nice? If so, use that to monitor and just put a sensible interface with the computer you are considering. You'll need to try a few DAWs to find one that suits your way of working - for me, it's Cubase, but Reaper seems very popular with many on here, but it's a personal thing really.

People will suggest condensers as good mics for violins, but violins can be so screechy that a dynamic could be a better starting point.
 
rob aylestone said:
Your wood and metalworking skills are impressive, as is the collection.

If you don't want to learn with a teacher (like me) and can pick things up quickly - there are loads of play along videos on YouTube and if you have the right skills and a decent memory, then that's a great way to practice - and the killer of course is tuning. I play the double bass and you need to play stringed instruments a lot to teach your fingers the correct spacing so muscle memory kicks in and your fingers automatically get very close, every time. You also need to master advanced techniques like finger wobbles as early as you can. Traditionally, these don't even get mentioned in conventional music grades till you've done quite a lot, but if you get your tuning sorted early, and then learn to wobble the left hand properly, the sound of your playing goes up very quickly. As for recording it - some of your rooms are a decent size so I'd suggest spending modest amounts early on. Do you have a decent hifi that sounds really nice? If so, use that to monitor and just put a sensible interface with the computer you are considering. You'll need to try a few DAWs to find one that suits your way of working - for me, it's Cubase, but Reaper seems very popular with many on here, but it's a personal thing really.

People will suggest condensers as good mics for violins, but violins can be so screechy that a dynamic could be a better starting point.
Click to expand...
Finger wobbles? Is that the introductory term for vibrato?
 
That’ll do. All the usual systems of learning keep that well away till you till you’re really competent. String lessons are always very rigid with lots of rules. When you learn fretless bass, you have to very quickly master the precision needed for tuning, then like playing bass, nobody really cares if you make a decent noise. On violin, viola and cello, there’s an awful lot of rules. On double bass, just one important one - don’t try to use your third finger separately if you can avoid it, because it doesn’t work very well. I can’t play the violin because my fingers are a bit thick, making tuning very hard.
 
Hi,

Many thanks for your website link Slouching Raymond; having viewed your excellent line drawings and paintings I'd now recognize any you'd display in a gallery because of your unique style; well done. You and I have a great deal in common; I too excelled in art & technical drawing at school gaining distinctions in each subject top of the class in both; in the dark ages when I was at school we had school leaving certificates no GCSE then in fact up to five years of age no electricty in my parents cottage just gas and cold water with a single coal fire for the whole cottage and food was a luxury; cockroach infestation and I suffered severe asthma until I grew out of it aged 11.

Your life story was also interesting reading; I too dislike football with a passion but then I dislike all sport thinking it a total waste of time and energy; I detest seeing so much sport on TV; if only the same finances and enthusiasm were put into industry then perhaps we'd regain the title "Great Britain" once again. Punishment at school was very quick and saved lots of warnings; my woodworking teacher in the last four years of senior school was a bully; I disliked him after only knowing him five minutes; he introduced us lads to his favourite toys these being three different widths of conveyor belting; most lessons saw a lad with feet tucked under the bench with his chest on the bench; this useless idiot also called us all "Septimus" four years of 2 hours per week woodworking lessons and very little to show for it other than a huge loathing of woodworking. In later years I started to enjoy all aspects of woodworking.

Like you I've also suffered quite a number of jobs my first job was straight down the pit as an apprentice mechanical engineer working at this pit;

https://www.ncm.org.uk/

If I was cheeky and not swift enough on my hob nailed boots I was dunked head first up to shoulders in the 45 gallon water butt at the side of the forge this having floating scum on the top; I shouldn't complain because I was never dunked into the 45 gallon whale oil butt; I later left the pit but since then I've never worked with a better set of guys anywhere; 6am start after cycling 4 miles in all weather.

I also spent years in textiles; I can weave (blanket fiber loom producing 1,800 yards of blanket each shift on a three shift system) loose dyehouse; pattern warping and beaming; weftman; I can also knit crimplene; jersey and lurex etc a job on nights. fiberglass laminator; bus conductor a job I truly hated especially carting drunks around on the last bus; another horrible job was in a dyeworks where I worked in the nitro benzene plant; yet another horrible job was in waste paper/cardboard; my last job of 24 years I started in the loading bays as a wagon loader and 24 years later was in charge of three departments this in a big multinational company; the stress powerful and I came down with shingles it being a warning to get out before being carried out; there were strong rumours I was to be given a fourth department the company in one of its many meetings was described very accurately as a rosy apple with a rotten core; just a few of the jobs I've had but I've suvived. Here's the blanket mill I worked at for quite a few years; I've really been through the mill in my lifetime;

https://www.yfanefa.com/record/414

Your guitar certainly was different Raymond; pity you don't still have it. I've already made a start on making a violin but winter got in the way; I bought a Strad book which included full sized Strad drawings and I copied these onto patterns; half pattern made of aluminium which when flipped gives full pattern and also glue up formers etc. I hope to resume work on the violin this summer assuming we have a summer here in Yorkshire.

Thanks for asking CrowsofFritz; yes it's the Pocketstudio 8 track and I'm using the internal pair of mics which seem to me to be very good indeed. In your post #11 yep sounds like vibrato although I've still got to learn this.

Thanks tmix for your useful mic suggestions; I need to back off and seriously look at what I can buy; at the moment I have a very cheap eBay mic probably better in the bin but the Tascam mics seem fine so far; my studio is small being only about 7' x 12' but I think better than many without a studio; I need to set it up hence I'm now on this excellent forum and life looks promising. Metal spinning is extremely dangerous; I managed to fracture a rib due to pressure needed on the spinning tool handle; these tools aren't toys my longest is 42" and I fractured a rib just spinning small diameter aluminium disks. Metal spinning looks so easy but have a look at this;



Many thanks Steenamaroo; I'm settling in nicely and once I start to grasp the basics of studio recording I'll quickly make progress with the generous help of forum members. My apprenticeship was watching a highly skilled engineer making things and it's definitely the quickest way to learn. I can file flat to a thou of an inch and on my home workshop lathe I can turn to a tolerance of one ten thousangth of an inch any finer tolerance than this then it's a case of lapping? I fully understand not jumping in and as you rightly say there are so many very useful YouTube instructional videos these days also I won't be practicing on the expensive violin wood I bought but I've got some very old well seasoned dry Meranti to hand; I need to resume violin making but it comes down to time; I spend a lot of time on home maintenance and in the gardens.

Thanks rob aylestone for your suggestions and advice which I'm taking note of; I'll have a look at CuBase & Reaper; I do have Audacity I've briefly played around with allowing me to transfer from Tascam to computer but I have difficulty with Codecs when trying to copy to YouTube but I'm trying to do everything at once. Finger wobble as CrowsofFritz says will be Vibrato but I'm still new to this? So far I think I'm just playing around having the single speaker guitar amp and Tascam etc; I think the Tascam is excellent but feel the Laney guitar amp needs to be replaced by a decent stereo amp but I hadn't even thought of using an Hi-Fi which I'll look into; I have a nice Sony mini Hi-Fi with stereo which could move me along better than messing around with the Laney amp; what an excellent suggestion thanks for sharing. I've got a D'Addario electronic fine tuner permanently attached to my German violin so tuning isn't a problem and I can play the scales reasonably well although I'm still very much a novice violin player.

I too have finger problems rob but unlike you my problem is caused by hard graft making my fingers and arms stiff and clumsy; as I say I'm now 74 and after a spate of recent severe storms the last storm damaged a 50' tall crack willow tree in our rear garden making it unsafe; this tree had three thick trunks making it like three trees in one; the weather was dire but I removed the split section then fed up of our terrible weather keep attacking our trees I decided to do something about it; I felled and disposed of 15 tall trees/conifers in just under two weeks which flattened me; up the ladder then up the tree higher to attach the ropes; unlike the tree fails on YouTube I felled every tree exactly were intended working totally on my own. The tallest tree near the top of the garden was 60' tall; I measured from this diagonally to the top corner of the garden and it was 65' so I needed to take a lot of care not to drop in onto the lane where it would be highly dangerous; I was wrapped up like an Eskimo against the freezing weather with sleet and hail but inside the heavy coat I was wet through with sweat; no wonder I struggle for time to play my violins also I find it hard to truly relax; just when I think I'm on top of all the hard jobs more such jobs pop up and living here it's been the same for the last 35 years.

Thanks once again everyone for your interesting and useful replies.

Kind regards, Colin.

3 March 2022_0001.JPG3 March 2022_0005.JPG12 March 2022_0003.JPG12 March 2022_0008.JPGTree work_025.JPGMy first painting attempts March 2016. (1).JPG
 
This worried me a bit. One of the skills of a string player is the requirement to play in tune, but also to not play in tune. 6 violins, all playing in unison, totally in tune, sounds horrible - the wonderful chorus effect comes from the constant microtuning they do. Learning to a tuner is not always a good move because it doesn't train your ear, just your fingers. Like guitar novices who use a tuner and then fall apart when the person they play with doesn't! what key is it in? No idea, I just took the guitar from the case and tund it by ear. SO the E is somewhere between E and Eb. Normally, you'd just shout give me an A, or something and you detune your perfect one to match their weird one.
 
Hi,

Thanks dobro; yes I need to learn so much more; intonation; vibrato; reading music etc. I'm still very much a violin novice but have gained a lot more experience since I started last August but I know I've only scratched the surface; I have considered violin lessons but I'm in this for a hobby not wanting to join an orchestra; there are so many demands on my time just maintaining our bungalow and gardens; we recently suffered about five severe storms in two weeks the last storm damaging a huge Crack Willow tree; this tree was like three trees in one having three thick trunks; the weather was dire; hail; sleet; snow and high wind but I went out and removed the dangerous section using one of my petrol 20" chainsaws. Looking at the other very tall trees/conifers being blown around in the high wind I thought I've had enough of this problem every year when it's windy. Still in dire weather and working on the steep wet slope I felled 15 trees in just under two weeks; I logged the thick stuff for a neighbour's woodburner she kept taking full car loads and the brash I shredded now used as garden mulch; I was wrapped up like an Eskimo against the freezing weather but I was also soaking wet with sweat.

12 March 2022_0002.JPG
Some of the trees the tallest at 60' the rest around 50'.

12 March 2022_0008.JPG
This was a big conifer at 60' tall; felled perfectly into the top corner of the garden; it would have been highly dangerous had it fallen over the wall because there's a lane just the other side of the wall.

15 March 2022_0001.JPG
It was very windy indeed and perishingly cold as I worked on my own; every tree landed perfectly saving us a fortune but not recommended for a novice.

15 March 2022_0006.JPG
15 of these in total meaning I suffered and at night in bed I didn't bother going to sleep I just dropped into a coma.

17 March 2022_0005.JPG

Over the years I've done a great number of free favours but never ever have had help on these big jobs; Here's just one of the loads one of many; everything had to be carried down from our mountain of a garden to the bottom of our site; I used a sack cart which was terrible due to everything being soaking wet and slippery; people are happy to just collect the logs free of charge not having lifted a finger in the felling but at least it saved many trips to the tip.

I'm adding these stories to explain I'm forever working flat out and being retired for me isn't time to do as I want in fact I struggle to get time to practice violin playing and when I do play I often am tired out; I'm 74 and fitter than many half my age.

Thanks rob for your excellent explanation; being a total violin novice I had to start somewhere; I've spent many hours watching interesting YouTube videos and number of these state as you do not to just concentrate on scales alone;



My dream is to play Lara's theme on a violin I make myself and I can only aspire to such playing as seen in the video; I love this tune and never tire of it; I can play the first two lines of the song but I'm not happy with how it sounds on playback so like you say I've been experimenting a bit; I bought the origial score and have been learning this note for note but the note "Snow" sounds poor so I've been playing around with different notes to see if I can find a note to suit me more.

I like to try different things and to experiment;

Violin_0001.JPG
Here's some progress I made before winter kicked in; I bought a Strad book containing full sized Strad plans which I've converted to violin patterns in sheet ply; MDF and aluminium.

Violin_0003.JPG
Here's exactly half the violin when flipped over it gives full sized violin. More of this to follow once I resume work on making a violin.

Violin_0002.JPG
This is my way of learning to play a violin from scratch; I don't yet read music but I have the score of Lara's Theme so here's what I dreamt up; I don't know if it's ever been done previously but when I have a problem to resolve I give it a lot of thought; everyone's heard of painting by numbers well here I'm violin playing by numbers. I broke the song lines down into single lines the first chart I drew was "Somewhere my love there will be songs to sing" By practicing over and over four notes at a time then joining the notes it worked a treat and built my confidence up; if I don't know something I make up my own way of learning.

Once I can feel more at home using my fingers on the strings and using the bow then I'll start to experiment more but in the meantime I'm making steady if slow progress by learning like this; I can play Twinkle twinkle a number of ways having firstly learned as shown until I got the tune in my head; I'll do the same with Lara's Theme as I gain experience but there's so much going on in my life I find it difficult to settle down and concentrate.

I'll only ever play on my own rob so if I play correct notes it won't bother but I'd like to play correct notes just for my own pleasure. I've already learned a lot just by joining this excellent forum.

I now need to concentrate on the second thread I started whilst I learn to set up my studio; so much to learn and so little time.

Kind regards, Colin
 
Last edited:
"I bought a Strad book"

You make it sound so straightforward.

"...containing full sized Strad plans which I've converted to violin patterns in sheet ply; MDF and aluminium."

Whyever the MDF and aluminum?
 
Hi,

Thanks for asking dobro. Easy answer; the Strad book was quite expensive and still had the Strad drawings in perfect condition which I wanted to preserve; making the patterns was no problem to me and I can now use these. I did have a major problem though in converting the Strad drawings these being big A2 size; nowhere I tried could photocopy to this size so I used my A4 scanner to scan the parts needed then used Gimp to acurately scale to size; it took a lot of time and frustration but I was determined to keep the original drawings in perfect condition. I also copied the knives which I then made these still needing sharpening.

Knives_0003.JPG
The new knives exactly to size as in the Strad book drawings.

1.jpg
The original drawing I worked from.

Clamps_0007.JPG
Whilst in the workshop I also made the clamps.

Kind regards, Colin.
 
Many years ago I heard a guy called Pete Hartley playing an electric violin to backing tracks at alton towers. All kinds of music but he had a very laid back and relaxed style. Search him out on the internet and have a listen. You’d get some good ideas what is possible from them. I’ve just ordered a cello. Not played one for nearly 50 years! A challenge?
 
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