Very Basic Mixing question. Confused

[Ibrow]

Hey,

Using Sonar in my computer, but I'm sure it's applicable to all computer recording. I have read a lot and stuff but it's just not sticking in black and white. Any help appreciated.

What is the process of mixing exactly? Not what it is, the process. I record all my tracks independently with no EQ, compression etc. and try to get them recorded as close to 0DB as possible without any clips. That's correct, right? I do that. But putting them all together is where I get a bit confused.

I have read that in the digital mixer I just leave the MAIN fader set at zero. I do. Here's where the trouble starts. I have read to leave EQ and compression out for now. Then start with the kick, add the bass, then the vocals, then the rest of the kit and get them all to gel. Unfortunately, at this point, I am usually WELL into the red on the main. Of course. So I start turning things down, and turning down, then adding guitars, and turning down, then adjusting EQ and turning down and compression. It's tough.

So, when should I EQ and compress? I like the sound of the kick nice and compressed and EQ'd. The Bass too. Then cutting out the bottom is pretty much a must for the other stuff to avoid mud, right? What negative, on the kick fader, is a "good" mix usually at?

Thanks.

 

[Massive Master]

Volumes and volumes could be written just about starting a mix...

If it helps, I start with the kick and bass at around -10 or -12dB or so (that's probably your first problem - Starting too loud). I do a little EQ'ing as I'm prepping the mix - Odd things, take out a little of this and a bit of that. Maybe compress... It'll come with time and experience when and how much you do anything.

I normally wait to do all the serious EQ and effect & insert tweaking until there's a reasonable facsimilie of a mix going on.

And I'd feel terrible if I didn't mention to leave the compression off the main buss if you're going to have the project mastered. If you need more than 1 or 2dB of reduction across the buss, it's probably needed more in the mix somewhere...

Hope that gives you a starting point...

John Scrip - www.massivemastering.com

 

[fenix]

for me, usually the snare seems to be the loudest thing in the mix. So i put the snare closest to 0 db and adjust the rest.

 

[Ibrow]

Thanks for the advice!

-10db for the Kick? LOL! That's the peak right? I'm not even close.

I do leave the compressor off the main bus. So I have that going for me. Which is nice.

I still want the main buss to peak near zero though, correct? With everything added in. Even with starting the kick at -10.

Thanks again.

 

[Massive Master]

For the most part, yes. I try to leave a bit more, especially at 24 bit and better when you've got the bits. Leave some room for mastering - Even if you're doing it yourself, don't try to master while you mix... It's benerally bad practice, with usually less than stellar results.

Come back to it later with fresh ears at the very minimum.



John -

 

[chessrock]

As long as none of the individual tracks are clipping, you should be able to just take the master volume down to a comfortable level.

 

[MAC2]

I also use Sonar....when I started tracking at no more than -12db (leaving at least 12db of headroom) 'twas a BIG improvement come mix or master time

 

[Ibrow]

Thanks again.

Chessrock, that's what I used to do and it seemed "OK". None of the tracks clip by themselves, but the MIX goes into the red. THen I'd just adjust each track fader by .5 or so arming them all and moving them as a unit. But if I ended up not liking something later, I'd have to adjust everything. It was a mess. So I don't "HAVE" to leave the Main slider set at Zero then? LOL! Thanks.

-12?!! Now here's a question for you. I record a track nice and loud, 0db-ish, then use compression and EQ to get the "sound" I want all while staying under 0. Due to compression, I may have to move the track fader down to -2 or something, but the track, after FX, is still sub-zero. NOW do I move the fader so it's peaking at -10 or -12? THEN go on to the next track, repeat for all the other tracks and then try to get it "mixed" together? OR do I record the track loud, 0db-ish, leave it clean with no compression or EQ, drop that bad boy to -10/-12 peaks, repeat with the other tracks, then start compressing/EQ'ing as I see fit?
Which way is "best"? Or is there another way I haven't messed up yet?

Thanks a LOT for the help BTW. The actual mixing isn't the problem, it's the ORDER things are commonly done in that escapes me.

Thanks. I feel better already. LOL!

 

[MAC2]

Get the "sound" you want tracked (recorded) into Sonar but with peaks no louder than -12db and once you're done mixing the tracks then heat the whole thing up 12db (or sometimes more...).

When I track (record) anything I keep the peaks under -12db (sometimes use outboard compression and/or EQ prior to going to Sonar but still keeping the peak record levels under-12db).....once all the tracks are recorded I'll mix/edit/EQ/compress with the master set to 0....once that's done I'll heat up the mix with compression across the main buss (master) and/or EQ or whatever else might be necessary....at this point it may be necessary to tweak the mix again because the whole mix is 10 to 12db hotter (louder) and you start to hear some things that may not have been evident before...I may even rasie the master volume, the channel volume or trim level (if I've bounced all the mixed tracks to one stereo track) to get even more volume of it if necessary....the final mix is burned via a spdif cable to an outboard TASCAM CD-RW700 burner....hope this gives you some ideas...

 

[Ibrow]

Thank you VERY much Mac!

 

[NYMorningstar]

Get the "sound" you want tracked (recorded) into Sonar but with peaks no louder than -12db and once you're done mixing the tracks then heat the whole thing up 12db

When you are tracking shouldn't you be trying to get the maximum bit count in the recording? Turning something down 3db's will halve the signal although the perceived loudness won't decrease as much as you might think. If when you're done mixing you heat the whole thing up 12 db's aren't you raising the floor noise unnecessarily?

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

There's a few misunderstood concepts here....

First off, here's an article of mine to get your started on the basics of Mixing...

But aside from that, here's a lesson in headroom....

"...but I thought the idea was to get as close to 0dB as possible...!"
Well.... yes... and no..... as a matter of fact, it depends on a number of things.

It depends on the wordlength (NOT "bitrate"!!!) that you're working with. In a 16-bit environment, it IS a good idea to maximize the audio resolution by using as many bits as possible to store the signal. To use all 16-bits would mean you have to keep the signal within the top 6dB of the meters.... now is this what you want? maybe - it depends.... 6dB of dynamic range is not a lot of room to move in when tracking - especially for drums and clean guitar with a lot of transients, so it's very easy to distort.

You also have to keep in mind what happens when you sum all these hot tracks in mixing. The output level of these tracks is cumulative, so if you set the first 8 tracks of hot signal levels at the nominal fader level, you may already be exceeding your mixer's summing stages, causing some very harsh sound.

On the other hand - in a 16-bit world, not maximizing your bit resolution can mean your potential audio sound quality isn't where it COULD be.

Dilemna? Sort of... along comes 24-bit recording.... this gives you the chance to better balance the trade-off between having to track hot levels while still maintaining enough headroom to allow easy summing of the tracks. In 24-bit recording you DON'T have to track hot - you will still have more than enough bit resolution to maintain high-audio quality and not have the track levels so hot that summing them causes distortion at mix time.

Yeah - fine... but I don't have 24-bit recording capability!!! Well -- in that case, I suggest you TURN DOWN THE TRACKING level..... the sonic "loss" is going to be far less than the degradation you'll incur in summing your tracks at mixdown.

You should always be aware of how the levels of one step will affect you and your gear at the next step....

There's a related article on gain staging/headroom here...

 

[Ibrow]

Thanks a LOT Blue Bear. I have read your first article you mentioned before and loved it. I'll have to hit that second article.

So, if I understand correctly, in 24-bit recording, you should still "try" to track at 0db, but it isn't entirely necessary? If it's peaking at -3,-6, or -8, you'll still be able to work with the sound because of the extra bits. Does that sound about right?

Thanks again.

 

[MAC2]

Ibrow:.....you're welcome!

Bear:....thanks for two informative articles (and the link within to even more info...)

NYMorningstar:....I've never heard of this "maximum bit count" concept before. I will say that great effort is made during the tracking process to eliminate any noise in the track in the first place (acoustical environment, mic placement, signal chain,etc.) so when the overall mix is raised there is no noise coming with it.....however you'd have a valid concern if there is noise in any of the tracks you're making louder...

 

[Speedy VonTrapp]

Bear,

As usual, your posts seem like a breath of fresh air around here.

(That is not to say that the others are useless, by any means. )

Bear just has a way of putting things so that a person like me can understand better.

With that said, I have this question about my specific gear, BB:

I have a Yamaha MD4S.

THIS SITE has some specs for you to look at. I apologize for the gibberish on the site, but my recorder isn't in production anymore and it's hard to find much information about it online.

According to the site above, the Yamaha is set up for -10 db.

My mixer is on THIS PAGE . It's just a picture, no detailed info there. But it's the Behringer UB1204FX-PRO.

The top left gain knobs have 2 numbers on them. 1 is +4, the other is -10.

Based on what you have described here in this post, I would assume that the best thing for me to do, given the gear that I have, is to set my gain knobs at or near the -10 on the Behringer, rather than the +4.

Is this way off base? Is it as simple as that? I'm trying to find out as much as I can about my equipment, and the way they interfaces with each other, as you suggested.

If that is the case, then, should I ride my faders to the point that are still well below 0 while tracking? I know that it will take some playing with, for sure. I'm just hoping to be on the right track here with this.

Thanks for the articles and the post, BB.

Very informative!

-Speedy