SteveM
New member
Before I go out and buy a bunch of balanced cable: If you are using short runs does it make any difference??????? Voltage or functionality is not compromised, correct? You just lose the extra ground?
O
ofajen
Daddy-O Daddy-O Baby
Unbalanced gear can be sonically superb. OTOH, if you already have balanced gear, you should connect it properly. Inputs can generally be unbalanced by having the minus leg tied to ground, but outputs vary. Most transformer-balanced outs can be unbalanced by tying the minus leg to ground, but most electronically-balanced outs prefer to have the minus leg left floating when you unbalance them. In all cases check for what the gear maker recommends.
Cheers,
Otto
briank
analog for the people!
IME it's best to use balanced cables between balanced gear and vice versa. If you're connected balanced to unbalanced gear, you can get (or make) cables wired unbalanced-to-balanced in a way that should keep everything happy. Even short unbalanced runs will be susceptible to noise. As for voltage, that's more a gear i/o matching thing (ie if you're hooking +4 pro gear to -10 consumer/pro-sumer gear or instrument level to line level)
SteveM
New member
Thanks for the reply Otto. I'm thinking about going out now to get some cable. The thing is, I realized that when you "insert" to a mixer channel , where there is just one 1/4" TRS, you are actually going in and out of the equipment unbalanced, because that's the way those TRS insert cables are made. Which made me wonder is it really necessary with short runs.
SteveM
New member
Thanks for the input briank. No, it's all +4. Just wondering if it would compromise that level.
O
ofajen
Daddy-O Daddy-O Baby
Again, it depends. Floating the minus output of active balanced gear costs you 6 dB. Unbalancing most transformered outs won't affect the level.
Cheers,
Otto
Blue Jinn
Rider of the ARPocalypse
Often times the owner;s manual will give you recommendations for hookup. Also Jensen and Rane both ahve arricles about this.
This article is a real nice summations:
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/an003.pdf
This article is a real nice summations:
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/an003.pdf
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
If the runs are short and you have a choice od running balkanced or unbalanced (like avoiding balanced circuitry) it may actually be to your advantage. On the spec sheet the frequency response on Tascam 58 I used to have topped out at 22kHz (+/-3dB) using the balanced jacks and 25kHz (+/-3dB) using the unbalanced jacks. In that case I had a choice of jacks, the RCA's totally bypassing the balance amp PCB.
Dr ZEE
Anti-Pro Circles Insider
Steve what exactly are you cannecting to what. All those general talks about "balanced gear" drive me nutzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! 
I've made those bouncing springs animation partially cpecifically to annoy people who love to chat about "blanced gear" in general and to drive them bananza ... heh heh
You gotta be specific to figure out the simplest and acceptable interconnection solution.
As Blue Jinn mentioned, used the "guides" that are available.
Here's link to Rane notes, there are good diagrams there: http://www.rane.com/note110.html . I wish they didn't use the "best" term, though ..huh huh
I've made those bouncing springs animation partially cpecifically to annoy people who love to chat about "blanced gear" in general and to drive them bananza ... heh heh
You gotta be specific to figure out the simplest and acceptable interconnection solution.
As Blue Jinn mentioned, used the "guides" that are available.
Here's link to Rane notes, there are good diagrams there: http://www.rane.com/note110.html . I wish they didn't use the "best" term, though ..huh huh
Dr ZEE
Anti-Pro Circles Insider
SteveM
New member
Thanks for the link. I will check it out.
YO Mike.Steve what exactly are you cannecting to what. All those general talks about "balanced gear" drive me nutzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!
I've made those bouncing springs animation partially cpecifically to annoy people who love to chat about "blanced gear" in general and to drive them bananza ... heh heh
You gotta be specific to figure out the simplest and acceptable interconnection solution.:
Ya, I know. Here we go again.
I don't "love" to chat about balanced gear, I'm just trying to save some money. 
This is not to hook up gear with different impedance, it's all +4, because the mixer has unbalanced inserts I was wondering if it was completely necessary to use TRS cables with other TRS +4 gear. The mixer has the single send and return 1/4" TRS, but it is a +4 insert.
Are you familiar with those? I'll look over those links.
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
The nominal signal level rating (i.e.+4, -10, blahblah) doesn't isn't tied to a balance amp.
TRS inserts are unbalanced as you have noted, so get or make the TRS to two TS 'Y' cables and you're good to go. If you have issues with noise (which you shouldn't if your cable runs are short, like less than 25', and if you're careful to not run the cables parallel with power cables) then it will be time to troubleshoot.
TRS inserts are unbalanced as you have noted, so get or make the TRS to two TS 'Y' cables and you're good to go. If you have issues with noise (which you shouldn't if your cable runs are short, like less than 25', and if you're careful to not run the cables parallel with power cables) then it will be time to troubleshoot.
SteveM
New member
I just want to clarify something. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression was the 3 wire design was to eliminate hum with long running lines. I'm probably wrong and there's more to it than that.
An example of my gear:
Soundcraft mixer inserts one 1/4" TSR to go in and out, unbalanced. +4
US Audio Gatex + 4 balanced TSR in, and balanced TSR out +4
UREI little dipper, balanced TSR in and balanced TSR out +4
FMR RNC unbalanced, 1/4" ins and outs, 0db
An example of my gear:
Soundcraft mixer inserts one 1/4" TSR to go in and out, unbalanced. +4
US Audio Gatex + 4 balanced TSR in, and balanced TSR out +4
UREI little dipper, balanced TSR in and balanced TSR out +4
FMR RNC unbalanced, 1/4" ins and outs, 0db
SteveM
New member
AHHH, thank you Cory. So you know what I'm talking about.
Still I'm going to check out the literature.
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
Yes...always good to read the books but based on your gear list you can just use standard TRS --> (2)TS 'Y' "insert" cables. The balanced vs. unbalanced thing won't effect the nominal level, and plugging in a TS cable to the TRS jack on the outboard gear will just negate the balance amp...it will be unbalanced without you even knowing it.
Yes you are right about the purpose of balanced circuits...balanced paths aren't advantageous because they *sound better*...they just negate hum and noise.
Yes you are right about the purpose of balanced circuits...balanced paths aren't advantageous because they *sound better*...they just negate hum and noise.
SteveM
New member
Dr ZEE
Anti-Pro Circles Insider
Steve, there's nothing "unusual" here, +4 inserts and/or direct outs are common. That's what I'd believe your mixer's internal operating level is, that's all.
You need to forget about the whole "issue" ..heh heh ... if you are going to use those inserts with the gear you've mentioned and simply use insert cables (see attached pic). It's not an option, it's The Only option here
Just double check what your mixer's inserts tip/ring send/return are.
If you have time and energy, make your own custom shortest cables that fit your setup. This also may well be a waste of time
You need to forget about the whole "issue" ..heh heh ... if you are going to use those inserts with the gear you've mentioned and simply use insert cables (see attached pic). It's not an option, it's The Only option here
Just double check what your mixer's inserts tip/ring send/return are.
If you have time and energy, make your own custom shortest cables that fit your setup. This also may well be a waste of time
Attachments
SteveM
New member
. It's not an option, it's The Only option here
Yes.
Except if I use TWO pieces of gear, with tsr balanced inputs, to go that insert, I CAN go one to the next with just a standard 1/4" TS, ....it'll be ok, .... I know it will.... Mike, I hope you save all those pics.