Using Seperate VST & Tracking Machines?

[Dr. Varney]

Unless I've misunderstood something, I'm sure I read somewhere in here, someone saying they ran their VSTs on a seperate machine to their tracking DAW...

Now I've been racking my brains to try and understand how one would connect two computers for one to run VSTs and how this would be networked - or is it done via an exchange of audio between computers?

As with most things, I would have Googled it - but I'm not even sure quite what to ask the search engine in the first place.

Basically, is this remotely possible, worth it - and if so, from the ground up, what is required for this mod and how is it put together?

Dr. V

 

[Seafroggys]

I believe REAPER can do this, you can run your effects on multiple computers hooked up via LAN.

 

[grimtraveller]

Unless I've misunderstood something, I'm sure I read somewhere in here, someone saying they ran their VSTs on a seperate machine to their tracking DAW...

I don't know if it was me......I run my VSTis from my laptop (they're housed in Cubase 5) but track and mix from standalones. Is that what you were referring to ?

 

[frederic]

I use "chainer" for that purpose. It's a standalone VST "host" program that allows you to install VST instruments and effects. It responds to midi and uses certain soundcards.

WHile I have used it on occasion as a VST outboard effect unit, mostly I use it as a VST instrument library.

Chainer is about $50 and runs under most versions of windows (I've used it on XP/Vista with no issue).

 

[Dr. Varney]

I don't know if it was me......I run my VSTis from my laptop (they're housed in Cubase 5) but track and mix from standalones. Is that what you were referring to ?

Possibly... What you've just said does ring bells.

I was wondering if this were possible using FL studio. I have a Pentium based laptop and a more powerful desk/tower system (which I am aiming to replace with a dual core system sometime in the near future).

Seafrogys mentioned a LAN connection. I believe I can hook two 'puters up this way using XP but is special software (such as Chainer) really necessary? Since I went legal with Windows, I got rid of the 'pro' version and now use 'home' and I'm not sure if the home version is any good for networking?

Fred, when you use Chainer - by what means are you computers connected? LAN, socket to socket, with a network cable? Is there some other device in between?

At the moment, it's all still only a thought...

Cheers

Dr. V

 

[frederic]

Fred, when you use Chainer - by what means are you computers connected? LAN, socket to socket, with a network cable? Is there some other device in between?

Chainer is just a VST hosting engine that runs on XP or Vista, and you load your VST outboard and instruments on top of that. That's all it is. It basically converts a PC to a VST-based outboard effect or a VST-based synthesizer, piano module, bass module, drum machine, or whatever else you decide to load.

Even though I own Sonar Producer, I really only use it for midi composing and sequencing. I use my plethora of Tascam digital consoles feeding four Akai DR16 hard disk recorders. So in my case a Chainer/VST PC can be an outboard, synthesizer, drum machine, sampler, or a combination.

As I'm sure you know there are no shortages of free and inexpensive VST effects and instruments out there, and a Chainer/VST PC gives you access to those with more traditional equipment.

If you do all your composing, recording and mixing "in" the PC, then running those VST outboards and instruments on that PC is the best option - no A/D or D/A conversion, no wires, no nothing. Load 'em and go. If they choke the PC a bit, well, memory and CPU can often solve that, especially as the fancier technology gets cheaper every day.

Happy to explain this further if you have any more questions. Happy to help.

 

[gecko zzed]

The OP's original query was:

Unless I've misunderstood something, I'm sure I read somewhere in here, someone saying they ran their VSTs on a seperate machine to their tracking DAW...

Now I've been racking my brains to try and understand how one would connect two computers for one to run VSTs and how this would be networked - or is it done via an exchange of audio between computers?

As with most things, I would have Googled it - but I'm not even sure quite what to ask the search engine in the first place.

Basically, is this remotely possible, worth it - and if so, from the ground up, what is required for this mod and how is it put together?

Dr. V

I note the various responses showing assorted possibilities.

But I wonder why you would want to go down this path.

I see from the responses that there are circumstances that sometimes warrant such a facility. But for general purpose home recording, I think any advantages are overwhelmed by the complexities involved.

Moderately specced PCs are more than capable of dealing with many tracks and associated plug-ins, specially if you optimise them for audio recording (by, for example, disabling any background activities that could be hogging CPU and RAM, such as screen savers).

A fairly common practice is to have separate drives for your programs and for your data files, for which there are sound reasons. But even this is not really necessary.

If a system is not performing as it should (or as desired), the first steps are to figure why this is the case. Quite often there are simple remedies. Complicated fixes are an option of last resort.

 

[oretez]

Having a separate machine to host VSTis is relatively common. There are some standalone dedicated and proprietary systems with several different strategies to accomplish this. Essentially audio cards with dedicated DSP chips do something similar for effects and processes firmware coded in the chips. While they do not support 3rd party VSTs the UAD power core cards are the type of thing need to relieve CPU of DSP processing (these start about $700)

But the dedicated systems are not particularly inexpensive. Receptor still currently available starts at roughly $2k. Plugzilla, probably not currently available was about $3k.

Which makes the idea of a diy dedicated box, built from last years computer look pretty promising. Unfortunately for real time situations ethernet 10baseT is far too slow, even 100baseT is too slow in terms of 'feeding' the CPU

and unfortunately, as a rough (and perhaps inaccurate), depending on a lot of factors and limiting the FSB to a 16 bit data path, your average desktop 'feeds' CPU at 1600Mb/s (firewire transfers data @ 400mb/s, still 4 times the speed of a typical network connection)

using a 2nd machine, networked, to try to improve CPU load for live mixing tasks is not really feasible at this time

additionally software needs to be rewritten even to use multiple core CPUs . . . and so far results are fairly hit or miss. (and I've been using multi-core processors since PIII 700mhz rack servers . . . even in Linux realm apps are not yet optimize for multi-processor processing)

but using a standalone machine to host VSTis, which are interfaced with projects via MIDI and audio is a very different matter

there are people working on real time processing via networks, but by and large the efforts still fall short of ready for prime time. One of the reasons is that most networking protocols are packet switched which tends to not interface well with streaming data, particularly when you get into something the size and density of an audio file

 

[Chili]

Another avenue would be Rewire. I'm not sure if all DAW's have it, but I think so. I know Cubase, Sonar and Reason do, not sure about FL.

good luck,

 

[Dr. Varney]

FL supports Rewire. I don't fully understand it though.

I appreciate what Gecko has said and it strikes me as realistic.

As to why would I want to do this; well, I don't know, really, to be honest. Mainly, I am curious. I mean, I'd like to try it (knowing full well I'm looking at a solution before a problem exists) if it's an easy task. For some reason, I am just very curious.

Dr. V

 

[Dr. Varney]

using a 2nd machine, networked, to try to improve CPU load for live mixing tasks is not really feasible at this time

Thank you, Ortez. Well, that kinda settles it then...

Except...

What about the others here who use the second machine? How do you find it in actual practice? What are the advantages for you?

Dr. V

 

[Dr. Varney]

Chainer is just a VST hosting engine that runs on XP or Vista, and you load your VST outboard and instruments on top of that. That's all it is. It basically converts a PC to a VST-based outboard effect or a VST-based synthesizer, piano module, bass module, drum machine, or whatever else you decide to load.

I see. But by what means does it connect to your main computer? I mean, how do you route outboard FX into a computer, so they work inside your project?

Sorry, I just find the whole thing a bit confusing, that's all.

Dr. V

 

[frederic]

I see. But by what means does it connect to your main computer? I mean, how do you route outboard FX into a computer, so they work inside your project?

Sorry, I just find the whole thing a bit confusing, that's all.

Dr. V

I misread your original post. Where you wrote "DAW" I somehow interpreted "recording console and recorder".

I'll explain what I do with examples, and hopefully it's clear enough to follow.

Let's say I want "autotune" for my analog or digial console.

I can buy a complete, autotune rackmount unit such as the Antares ATR-1, screw it into my rack, cable it up as I would any outboard, (effects send to Antares in, Antares out to effects return), power it up and I have autotune.

(or)

I can buy the Antaras EVx VST plug in, slap that software on a windows PC running Chainer, and connect the console's effects send to the PC line in, the PC Line out to the effects return.

Basically, I turned the PC into an Antaras auto-tune outboard, with this method.

The advantage of the latter method (PC, Windows, Chainer, VST stuff), is I can run more than one VST on that PC - so that piece of hardware, can be many things. Google for "VST Plugins" and you'll find tons of VST effects and instruments (free and otherwise) that you can install, making the PC-based VST thing very flexible - it can essentially be anything you want - effect unit or synthesizer, drum machine, piano module, sampler, etc.

I use such a PC with my Tascam TM-D4000 digital console - it has effects sends and receives just as an analog console would have. Couple of 1/4" to 1/8" patch cords and it's spliced in as an effects unit, and I'd then load VST effects.

TO use it as a synth/drum machine/piano/bass module, I'd plug the PC's line out to a pair of input channels using the same cords, and send the PC midi data as if it were a multi-timbral synthesizer - because now it is.

What you're talking about (I think), which I missed in the very beginning is you want to offload VST processing to a second PC, and have it work in conjunction with your DAW PC processing the audio "live" in the DAW software on the first PC.

That, I have no idea how to do because I've never had to do it myself. I use my Sonar Producer for Midi composing and sequencing only (well, 99.9% of the time anyway), as I have a set of digital consoles linked together plus a rack of Akai DR16's (hard disk recorders) connected to them, and rack after rack of synths and outboards behind me.

Not sure if that helps, hopefully it does.

To the person who said above that certain things cannot take advantage of multiple processors or processors with multiple cores, that is correct, however this is where something like Chainer shines. While it by itself doesn't take advantage of dual cores or dual processers - here's the neat thing - you can run multiple instances - so with that, you can to into windows task manager and put the first instance of chainer onto processer (or core) one, and the second instance of chainer onto processer (or core) two.

I did that exactly once to see if it can be done, but never had a need for it myself. A Pentium D desktop (two cores) with 8gb of ram and Vista is gross overkill for my needs.

 

[oretez]

Thank you, Ortez. Well, that kinda settles it then...

Except...

What about the others here who use the second machine? How do you find it in actual practice? What are the advantages for you?

Dr. V

In the studio I will typically have multiple machines connected via ethernet. I do a fair amount of vid work where rendering runs about 9 frames /sec. This type of non real time processing can be distributed among a number of machines. When CPU's were slower, RAM smaller I also distributed things like convolution across more then one machine

When using a VSTi with sample based intruments it is frequently a good idea to generate the sounds from chips separate from recording CPUs

A laptop running a VPN client can be used as an effect remote control. Noisy gear stays in equipment closet the laptop walks around the studio controlling transport and basic editing functions, etc.

Again been using multiple machines for long enough that it is difficult to impossible to relay exactly how they are co-ordinated in anything shorter then tech manual

plus I tend to use an older machine as RAID NAS for backup and to be able to tunnel into data from the road provide a FTP path for clients, etc.

the number of machines how they are connected changes all the time, not daily or necessarily monthly but with great regularity . . . eventually as touch screen LCDs drop in price using a laptop as VPN client will probably no longer be necessary

 

[Dr. Varney]

Beautiful answers, guys. Thank you!

I can buy the Antaras EVx VST plug in, slap that software on a windows PC running Chainer, and connect the console's effects send to the PC line in, the PC Line out to the effects return.

Basically, I turned the PC into an Antaras auto-tune outboard, with this method.

Ah... this is it.

So... when you make these connections, you are sending and returning processed audio? Is that right?

Please excuse my tentative ignorance.

Okay... well, then I'm assuming I would need a pretty decent interface on each computer used in this plan.

Since I only really have one computer that can be considered 'audio equipped', that is to say - the desk machine has the pro card, while the laptop survives on it's very poor USB IO, I think I'll be skipping this route - for now.

But it's certainly something I may consider in the future.

The biggest advantage to buying an external sound IO for the laptop, (and why I'm actually considering it) would be to make field recording possible with the laptop.

So if/when I do purchase one, I'm assuming I then purchase Chainer - and I'm good to go on outboard sound processing?

I have a patchbay - and again, assuming this would make the connections easier and more versatile?

You didn't mention MIDI in this arrangement and wondered, say you bought the Antares hardware... does it not connect to the PC via MIDI or is it simply audio connections, to the inputs of the PC, using the hardware mixer send/returns?

Thanks again for your time. This is very interesting. Cheers.

Dr. V

 

[frederic]

So... when you make these connections, you are sending and returning processed audio? Is that right?

Yes, just like any outboard/effects unit. The difference is instead of a hard-wired, single purpose device, it's a PC that can do many things.

Okay... well, then I'm assuming I would need a pretty decent interface on each computer used in this plan.

Yes, the built-in audio of the PC is probably crap. Not always, but usually.

So if/when I do purchase one, I'm assuming I then purchase Chainer - and I'm good to go on outboard sound processing?

You'll also need some VST effects/outboards to use the Chainer PC as an outboard effects unit or VST instruments to use it as a synthesizer. Or both That's the beauty of using a PC.

I have a patchbay - and again, assuming this would make the connections easier and more versatile?

Yes, as is the case with any outboard or synthesizer.

You didn't mention MIDI in this arrangement and wondered, say you bought the Antares hardware... does it not connect to the PC via MIDI or is it simply audio connections, to the inputs of the PC, using the hardware mixer send/returns?

The Anteras has a midi in jack and you can tell it what note the sound going through it should be. It will tune accordingly. The VST version can do the same thing, and you'd need a midi in jack on the PC. Even if you disable the PC's built in audio and install something fancy, you can still leave the joystick port enabled and solder up a simple midi interface - most generic desktops use the joystick port as a midi in/out as well. You can buy that cable for about $20-30 if you don't want to solder it up.

PM me if you want me email, happy to talk about this further if you need. This may, or may not be for you depending on a whole variety of factors.

If you want that is... no harm no foul either way.

 

[Dr. Varney]

That's fantastic, Fred. You've pretty much said it all, in a nutshell (I think).

Thanks for explaining all that, mate. If I do get a second interface, I'm now aware of the other possibilities, while the laptop is otherwise sitting idle.

I really like the idea of setting it up as a synth as well.

Cheers

Dr. V

 

[frederic]

That's fantastic, Fred. You've pretty much said it all, in a nutshell (I think).

Thanks for explaining all that, mate. If I do get a second interface, I'm now aware of the other possibilities, while the laptop is otherwise sitting idle.

I really like the idea of setting it up as a synth as well.

Cheers

Dr. V

Before you buy anything, even an audio interface, make sure you look at the Chainer website (http://www.xlutop.com/html/chainer.html) maybe download the demo version, play with it, etc. Your audio interface MUST be ASIO 2.0 compatible.

While it's only a 1mb download and super simple to install, you have to think a bit while using it because of the terminology - slots and channels.

Just be sure of the ASIO 2.0 thing.

 

[CDSoundMaster]

Rewire allows you to run one program inside another. For instance, you could load Reaper and run an instance of FLStudio inside of it as if it were a VSTi. This way, if the instrument you want is in FLStudio, but you record and write in Reaper, you can 'rewire' FLStudio to run on a track(s) in Reaper and not have to jump back and forth or screw up sound/midi resources trying to open both.
But, offloading effects, like I think you are initially asking, can be done by using one machine to load vst's(i) and running them in the host/daw computer. Offloading uses a separate computer for cpu/performance and your main computer for recognizing the gui instances. I don't remember the 'best' paid program host known for doing this. I thought it was jbridge but I think that is for linking chains. I know that REAMOTE is supposed to handle this, and I think you can choose the connection yourself, like wireless, dsl, etc.
You install to both machines, and then one computes and the other recognizes the results.
Steinberg has system link- don't know if people like it or if it is dependable.
Also, the Nebula Pro plug-in (not a host or system for loading vst's, but a vst itself), has a 'server' version that allows processing on a wifi connection of Neb instances (acustica audio).
I hope this helps with the original question.

 

[BushmasterM4]

Here is a program that allow you to hook up another pc and run your plugins off of it. Works extremely well, but its an older program. Running out of CPU cycles is not much of an issue anymore. But for shits and giggles I did hook up 2 pc's a couple years ago and it works guite well. Its called FX-Teleport FX Teleport