Using backing tracks live...

no worries bud. i do see the merit of having a separate click where you as a soundman have the ability to adjust the level on the fly, assuming the guys on stage are calling for that. in this case presumably the musicians have already been rehearsing to the backing track/click combo and have that level issue already worked out.

i think the click isn't really needed in this scenario for anything other than intros or maybe stop time or other places where no sound is happening on the backing track, to keep the drummer in sync. Drummers are typically used to getting in the pocket with a bass, but its more common for the bass to follow the kit rather than the other way around. i also would not want to click to be audible to the audience at all via bleed in open stage mics, and would suggest perhaps a hi-hat sound for the click. less noticeable to the audience that way.

it all comes down to the drummer whether it will work out. i usually record demos for the group i'm in, at my home studio, sometimes with a click and sometimes not. some drummers can't sync to a click if their life depended on it; they rush slow tunes and drag fast numbers. other guys are like a machine. but i do think playing to a click a skill that can be learned with practice, if the musician is willing.

thanks for sharing your POV.
 
Wow, you guys are rad. So much great info. Really glad to see BoulderSoundGuy piped in; he really knows his shit, at least from what I've seen on this forum.

Let me clarify a few things:

A: Yes, our drummer rocks IEMs. And we will most likely use tempo maps as opposed to straight clicks to avoid stale, static feels & performances.

B: I've used backing tracks before but not for a main instrument like bass; my initial post was less about the technical side of doing so and more so looking for info about how the experienced folks on this site think having a bass sound playing during a live show but no player playing it for the audience to see will be perceived: will it be considered cheating? Cheesy? See what I'm getting at here?

C: even if we find a competent, dedicated player (and I disagree with a few of the posts here which claim that bass can pretty much be played by anyone; my biggest pet-peeve when it comes to rock musicians is guitarists playing bass: they always sound just like that, a guitarist playing bass. A good bass player is obviously essential in-studio, but I think they're just as important live, as they're the second tier of the rhythm section, and if you know anything about rock n' roll, then you know that if you don't have a stellar rhythm section, yer band sucks. Period), we will still use backing tracks for other things like synths, keys, special effects, maybe even backing vox. Since every live room is different, I will not premix them to a stereo buss. They will be sent from a multi-output interface from the DAW, along with MIDI CCs to control effects pedals and whatnot. The FOH & monitor guys will have full control over their levels.

So my main technical concern at this point is how do I level out the backing tracks to ensure at least a little consistency with how they're mixed live by different guys in different rooms every night?
 
Johnny Don't! said:
So my main technical concern at this point is how do I level out the backing tracks to ensure at least a little consistency with how they're mixed live by different guys in different rooms every night?
Click to expand...

Rehearse with them and make adjustments until you can play a set without touching the DAW, then export them to separate files incorporating the adjustments, then load them into a fresh project with everything flat at the outputs. The guy mixing should be able to use the same gain settings on all the input channels and start with the faders at 0, maybe even put them all on a subgroup.

I would look into using an Alesis HD24 for playing your backing tracks. That would be more stable than a DAW.
 
I was playing dance music with sequencers, samples and drum loops all running live on stage, we changed our set up as the technology got better, midi file player and modules, then a laptop, and eventually we fine tuned our rig after many years to a Akai MPC1000. This drove all the midi, held samples, and also was rock solid easy to set up and small in size. On thing I had with me was a mp3 player with all out tracks, samples and drums mixed to mono on one channel (side of stereo) and a click on the other, just in case the whole system went down at a show and we needed to have a quick fix. You could do your show that simple, bass one side, click the other. Oh the whole band used in-ears eventually so no monitor spill.

Alan.
 
I don't know exactly how you'll do it. Like I said, I use a click where it's necessary and then kick it off when I can follow other instruments. BUT, I have a dedicated sound person. I'm the only one in my show, so everyone knows it's just me, and with a little humorous prelim about how my backing tracks are made I've never had anyone say it was hoagie. It's my music and I played it, just not all at the same time.
The biggest problem if you use multiple people to do your sound will be getting them to know what you want it to sound like. You can't pop out into the audience and listen... Best advice I can give you is to either carry a live recording that was done well, or go with a dedicated sound man...
Did you check out Newsboys. One of the hottest Christian rock bands going and they've been running with no bassist for about 10 years.
Like the idea of running lights and effects and pedals off the midi. Sure it's been done before.
 
I think I have done all the versions of this and the differences are down to what the band need and thei music. Worst thing is any form of click in the monitors. Absolute no no. If the drummer can cope with click, then ask the drummer what he wants and needs. Some big name bands use click, and the drummer is the key person. With two track it's pointless having the click mixed with the music. The other track with the missing parts on it can be sent to wherever it's needed and treated as if the player on the track is there. If you mix the click and the bass, the drummer may lose it, because the mixed track is not clean enough. I know a tribute band who had no drummer. Nobody in the audience ever queried it. Then the bass player left and they put the bass into the track mix. Their roadie makes the stage look busier by playing a huge rack of non working keys centre stage. It sounds really good but the only instrument played live is now one guitar. Nobody in the audience knows and it works. Punters have never cared. Did anyone ever ask where the extra guitars come from in huge bands who are known world wide. Nobody notices that when the guitarist plays a solo, the rhythm carries on. Nobody counts the voices they can hear and they come to more than the people you see? They don't, however, want to see cheating. They hate the idea of tracks, it's a cop out. Your job is to stop them knowing, and a click count in that comes from unseen sources is a killer.
 
I totally agree with Rob on a couple of points.

First, any form of click or count in monitor wedges is a total no-no. This belongs in headphones or IEMs only.

Second, the key thing is to ask the person who has to use the click track (in my case usually an MD/Conductor, in the OP's case probably the drummer) what they need. It might me a simple click, it might be a click with counts as needed, sometimes it's even a keyboard version of the whole melody line. The best results I've had with a click track are usually where the person using is involved in actually making the track--that way they can do exactly what they want.
 
I was the drummer in a band with no bass or keyboard players. for a while, I just used a rack mount cd player and headphone amp set to mono for my cans. Left channel fed the house, righr channel fed my headphone amp. The house feed was fed to the monitors, so everyone else could hear the tracks. All I needed was a DI to the snake to feed the PA and we were good to go.

The only drawback was I had to count in all the songs, including the ones that start with just guitar. So later, I started using a laptop and the band got in-ears. Then, since we had multiple outputs, the guitar player gets the click during parts where ther are no drums and I could feed a stereo backing track to FOH, if I wanted to.

It worked really well. On my click feed, I also had guitar and a little vocal recorded so I didn't lose my place. The advantage to that is my headphone mix is exactly the same at rehearsal as it is at the show. It's very comforting when everything doesn't change from show to show.
 
You are heading into nightmare territory. You would need everyone on in-ear monitors, and the feed to you all would need a click, while the feed to the house mains would not. My advice is to hire a good bass player; preferably a good session player and use them live.
Rod Norman
Engineer and producer

Johnny Don't! said:
Hey kids. So while I'm not a newbie to this forum or to recording itself, I *AM* new to the idea of using backing tracks during a live show. I have used them sparsely in a previous band I was in, but it was only for a synth track and a drum loop.

I've started a new band and am having a TON of trouble finding a qualified bassist who is available at the level to which we need one, so the idea of having someone play the bass parts in-studio (to a tempo map, obviously) when we record next month and then using those bass tracks live as backing tracks came up.

I tend to be a traditionalist when it comes to playing live, meaning I want live musicians playing with me onstage, but if worse comes to worst, we might be forced to use bass backing tracks. So my question is, to all the musicians on this site, what are your thoughts/feelings/opinions on a live band using backing tracks for bass? Do you think it will take away from the live performances? Will it be cheesy? Will it affect the audience's enjoyment of the show?

Any input would be deeply appreciated.
Click to expand...
 
No. Only the drummer needs a click and in ear (or headphones). The drummer simply counts in all the songs. To keep thay from getting repetitive, I came up with a percussion part for the intro for some of the songs, so it wouldn't always be an obvious count in.
 
I completely use backing tracks, which I MIDI & play everything myself. Live I will either play keys or acoustic Guitar while the "Band" plays everything else.

Biggest downside is I can never go anywhere else with a song for an impromptu additional Bridge or Chorus, or drop the band out.

It's a different mindset because you are able to practice to EXACTLY how the other musician(s) are going to play.

The biggest challenge for me is how I hear it so different once I am in front of an audience with talking, moving around, laughing, etc.... & room dynamics make it so different. Also for my venues there is generally the house sound man and their monitors etc. And with quick set-up and sound checks, I am flying by the seat of my pants more than this control freak cares to get into. I always prepare as if anything can & will go wrong......

It can get interesting, exhilirating, & downright terrifying, once I have begun the track and I'm along for the ride in "Mr Toads Wild Ride"....:facepalm:
 
I'd guess that you'd probably want to rearrange the songs to exclude the bass solos, but otherwise I'd be surprised if most people even noticed. A keyboardist on stage can cover for a lot of stuff.

For those who might end up going with the MP3 player - especially if it's an iPhone of iPod - for the love of fuck turn off the "shake to shuffle" feature! Don't ask...
 
SteveAlton said:
I completely use backing tracks, which I MIDI & play everything myself. Live I will either play keys or acoustic Guitar while the "Band" plays everything else.

Biggest downside is I can never go anywhere else with a song for an impromptu additional Bridge or Chorus, or drop the band out.

It's a different mindset because you are able to practice to EXACTLY how the other musician(s) are going to play.

The biggest challenge for me is how I hear it so different once I am in front of an audience with talking, moving around, laughing, etc.... & room dynamics make it so different. Also for my venues there is generally the house sound man and their monitors etc. And with quick set-up and sound checks, I am flying by the seat of my pants more than this control freak cares to get into. I always prepare as if anything can & will go wrong......

It can get interesting, exhilirating, & downright terrifying, once I have begun the track and I'm along for the ride in "Mr Toads Wild Ride"....:facepalm:
Click to expand...

Wow! We do the same thing I've been working on programming a playback plug-in (like a drum sequencer) that allows you to put the entire chorus as a loop, the entire verse as a loop, intro, out, bridge, whatever as loops and then be able to add a chorus or an extra verse and chorus or whatever live...Not having much luck, but if you hear of a plug in that operates this way, I'm sure we'd both benefit!
 
Rod Norman said:
You are heading into nightmare territory. You would need everyone on in-ear monitors, and the feed to you all would need a click, while the feed to the house mains would not. My advice is to hire a good bass player; preferably a good session player and use them live.
Rod Norman
Engineer and producer
Click to expand...

Nah. It's an established technique used by thousands of bands and theatrical shows--and it's completely normal for the click track to only go to the person or persons who actually need it. In the theatre this tends to be the Musical Director/Conductor; for the OP it would probably be mainly the drummer (though that depends on their arrangements--if some numbers start with a keyboard solo for example, then the keyboard player needs it too. All this is easily solvable.

I think even the OP would prefer finding a bass player but, despite their reputation as gorillas, they don't always grow on trees!
 
I think as mentioned, practice with it and you may be pleasantly surprised. I knew a guy abou 12 years ago that used a 4 piece band on tape....he played guitar. As a solo act he was vell versed in the way the system would perform and with about 400 people in attendance ( BBQ and bike show ) most people were even unaware that the guitar player was the whole band. Some were more focused but the sound was full complete and darn near live sounding. ,I was not one of the scrambled masses but an interested observer...it work very well

Practice is an obvious key element
 
Get yourself a Roland SPD-SX.

The learning curve should be simple for you and it is designed to be used live.

I (drummer) trigger all the tracks in my 3 piece bands because, all I have to do is hit something at the right time, which is pretty much all that drummers do :)

I use it for keys/synth, horns, rhythm guitar and even bass guitar when my bass player picks up a guitar one Pink Floyd's Money. I usually just use it enough to fill out the 3 piece. In a few cases, it may play a bit too much :) It depends on the music. Some newer dance music is very synth heavy. Hell, some new music has no real instruments in it at all :)

For a guitar player, the triggering of different segments within a song would get more complicated. The unit does allow for two foot switches but many songs require more than that, unless you are running the track straight thru from beginning to end.

You band members will have to learn to follow the tempo of the machine because, well because it's a machine. It takes some getting used to but it wasn't difficullt for me at all.

Since you are familiar with recording, you are several steps ahead of where I started. I had to learn to write and record the parts by ear, then learn how to lay out the segments so I could easily trigger them. I don't do any start to finish backing tracks because I am afraid of a train wreck. I can kill the track at any point and just pick it up when the next segment comes around (verse, chorus etc.) Some segments are just short loops that can be re triggered quickly.

It's a stand alone simple machine that has withstood the test of time (3 years) in my case. "All" you do is record the tracks, make them WAV files and load them onto the SPD.

As far as nightmare territory, I do agree that is is WAY easier to have all music played live by musicians. but it's not that tough. The band just uses the tracks as a click. Everyone just needs to hear it, just like they need to hear all the instruments and vocals. The only adjustment I have to make is to occasionally add a tambourine or closed high hat sounding click to the recording in some cases (long, drawn out strings for example). It gets buried in the music so it doesn't really stand out.


Wow! We do the same thing I've been working on programming a playback plug-in (like a drum sequencer) that allows you to put the entire chorus as a loop, the entire verse as a loop, intro, out, bridge, whatever as loops and then be able to add a chorus or an extra verse and chorus or whatever live...Not having much luck, but if you hear of a plug in that operates this way, I'm sure we'd both benefit!
Click to expand...

This would work for you as well. The beauty of using the tracks in segments is that you can simply loop some parts and let them run as many measures as you want. Most of the stuff we play has plenty of room for improvisation. I specifically design parts around singers who tend to forget words and sometimes need an extra measure to remember where they are :)
 
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