Using a compressor as limiter for master?

  • Thread starter Thread starter mesaboogie5050
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Why is that? These are personal recordings for me and one other person. These are not the tracks we record in the studio and put out for people. Why can I not learn how to do this during recording demo's? I am learning about compressors as I do it. This is how I learn. By doing. Do you suggest I go read a book but don't do any of it and come back after I read the book? Because I can guarantee you I won't know nearly as much as if I would have just done it.

---------- Update ----------

Yes, that is what I've been doing. Which solved that as I said earlier. But that is an example of what it looks like before I do it.
 
Oh, btw, on the acoustic tracks, which are low. To make it louder with less head room should I engage my tube mic pre to +4? I have it on -10 right now. I also have all compressors I own at -10 except for the one talked about in this thread.

I have an 1101 in my recording rack as well, which is a guitar pre amp, but I use it vocals as it has real lexicon reverb in it. I do a -10 on it as well.

I can not find ANYWHERE that tells me if the saffire pro 40 is supposed to do +4 or not. I've searched the internet everywhere.

The saffire works at either -10 or +4, it's just louder at +4 obviously. But I read somewhere that it was about voltage or something and that consumer gear usually uses a -10, but not all of it.

Is a saffire pro 40 considered consumer gear with -10? I know some of the other interfaces in it's range specifically say +4 or there are ones like the Apogee that let you choose if you want to -10 gear or +4.
 
mesaboogie5050 said:
Why is that? These are personal recordings for me and one other person. These are not the tracks we record in the studio and put out for people. Why can I not learn how to do this during recording demo's? I am learning about compressors as I do it. This is how I learn. By doing. Do you suggest I go read a book but don't do any of it and come back after I read the book? Because I can guarantee you I won't know nearly as much as if I would have just done it.
Click to expand...

Hands on is a good way....but the way you are approaching it is like saying you want to know everything about a race car, while driving it at high speed during a race.

It seems like you have bunch of gear that you've never used before, that someone left for you....and you're immediately trying to apply its use in a mix/production. It just seems like it's a case of "it's here, so let's use it".
You don't have to just read a book about it....but it would help as a starting point, since youre asking a lot of questions here...and you have to read the answers....so maybe a book is where you should start.

You mentioned wanting "that coloration" for the track....I asked you what color is it that you are after or that you think you should be getting?
 
mesaboogie5050 said:
Why is that? These are personal recordings for me and one other person. These are not the tracks we record in the studio and put out for people. Why can I not learn how to do this during recording demo's? I am learning about compressors as I do it. This is how I learn. By doing. Do you suggest I go read a book but don't do any of it and come back after I read the book? Because I can guarantee you I won't know nearly as much as if I would have just done it.
Click to expand...

I totally endorse learning by doing, that's what I did. I just think if you build your knowledge in stages rather than trying to make things extra complicated you'll learn faster.

For example, figure out how to master with just plugins. You can get great results that way with practice. Start with the least amount of processing possible, adding only if there's a specific need. Once you've got that down then you're ready to add a new element like a hardware processor.
 
mesaboogie5050 said:
Oh, btw, on the acoustic tracks, which are low. To make it louder with less head room should I engage my tube mic pre to +4? I have it on -10 right now. I also have all compressors I own at -10 except for the one talked about in this thread.

I have an 1101 in my recording rack as well, which is a guitar pre amp, but I use it vocals as it has real lexicon reverb in it. I do a -10 on it as well.

I can not find ANYWHERE that tells me if the saffire pro 40 is supposed to do +4 or not. I've searched the internet everywhere.

The saffire works at either -10 or +4, it's just louder at +4 obviously. But I read somewhere that it was about voltage or something and that consumer gear usually uses a -10, but not all of it.

Is a saffire pro 40 considered consumer gear with -10? I know some of the other interfaces in it's range specifically say +4 or there are ones like the Apogee that let you choose if you want to -10 gear or +4.
Click to expand...

On the Pro 40 input channels 1 and 2 are +4dBu when the pad is engaged (if I'm reading the manual correctly), and something like -10 when the pad is not engaged. The other line inputs are probably +4. The outputs are definitely +4, but 1 and 2 have software switchable 20dB attenuation. See pages 8 and 25 of the manual.
 
mesaboogie5050 said:
Oh, btw, on the acoustic tracks, which are low. To make it louder with less head room should I engage my tube mic pre to +4? I have it on -10 right now. I also have all compressors I own at -10 except for the one talked about in this thread.

I have an 1101 in my recording rack as well, which is a guitar pre amp, but I use it vocals as it has real lexicon reverb in it. I do a -10 on it as well.

I can not find ANYWHERE that tells me if the saffire pro 40 is supposed to do +4 or not. I've searched the internet everywhere. ..
Click to expand...
Remember this?
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...g-mics-through-stereo-pre-amps-10-4db-374701/
And this..
Specifications | Focusrite
And this..
http://hux.com.au/Soapbox Items/Wo...0Reference.pdf
It says the Saffire definitely does take 'pro level' line inputs.
Now, what actually were the peak levels in general you were getting during the recording of these 'low' 'small' acoustic guitar tracks?
That's what matters first.
 
mixsit said:
Remember this?
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...g-mics-through-stereo-pre-amps-10-4db-374701/
And this..
Specifications | Focusrite
And this..
http://hux.com.au/Soapbox Items/Wo...0Reference.pdf
It says the Saffire definitely does take 'pro level' line inputs.
Now, what actually were the peak levels in general you were getting during the recording of these 'low' 'small' acoustic guitar tracks?
That's what matters first.
Click to expand...

Yes, I remember that, in which NO ONE answered me. They kept explaining to me the difference between -10 and +4, which I understand now. Yet, still can't find out if the saffire is set up for +4 but it works. It is louder than -10.

The peak levels I'm getting I usually go to about -6 at the most. I can get it to sound really good now since I have learned more of what I am doing. But I still have to bring the final product up in volume of course, which is what I was discussing.

So, since you've provided information that the saffire takes pro level inputs, is it better to set it on +4 and turn it down? Will that have less of a noise floor? Or just keep it at -10 so 0vu equals -18
 
Edit: but I wouldn't want to run at +4 and turn it down would I? Doesn't the analog gear like to hit 0VU for good sound?

Also, why do I read that +4 is quieter for most people? It is louder for me.
 
The same signal pumped into a +4 input should be quieter than if it is pumped into a -10 input. The difference is about 11db (because the scale reference is different)

What you want to do is figure out what the output of the preamp is (I assume +4) and set the interface for that level. That way everything is working as designed.
 
You should match input sensitivity to output level. That is, if the output level of one device is +4 then the input sensitivity of the next device should be +4.

On the Pro 40 0dBFS = 16dBu, so 0dBu = -16dBFS. In most cases 0dBVU = +4dBu. So 0dBVU on an analog device should equal -12dBFS in the Pro 40. That's a little on the high side so if I were using an external preamp I would want to turn down the output a little.

Getting the level up at the final stage can be as simple as using a decent mastering limiter. But the mix itself will be the limiting (heh) factor for loudness. If the individual elements of the mix are too dynamic then limiting the 2-track will cause all sorts of stuff you probably don't want. You may have to go back to the mix stage and compress/limit individual tracks.
 
Well the pre amps have a switch, for -10 or +4. The saffire does not. I can record at either one. But if I record at +4 the levels are too loud. I just tried it. And I was in the yellow at 0VU with my peaks. I stay around -18DBFS with it switched to -10

But my question there is, am I getting more noise floor? Because I do not have isolated rooms, when in mastering I turn the acoustic guitar or vocals up, you can also hear the noise floor a LOT. So I'm thinking I should just record hotter. Would I get less of a noise floor on +4?

The +4 I can use if I turn the pre amp down, but then I can't really hit 0vu which the manual tells me I want to hit. I can hit 0vu safely with it at -10.
 
And to follow-
The same signal pumped into a +4 input should be quieter than if it is pumped into a -10 input. The difference is about 11db (because the scale reference is different)
Click to expand...
..just in case..
mesaboogie5050 said:
..Also, why do I read that +4 is quieter for most people? It is louder for me..
Click to expand...
Of couse.. that depends.. Which one? ;) An output device, '+4 is more voltage = 'louder' higher levels.
For an input device.. it means less sensitivity, = lower level levels.
 
mesaboogie5050 said:
Well the pre amps have a switch, for -10 or +4. The saffire does not. I can record at either one. But if I record at +4 the levels are too loud. I just tried it. And I was in the yellow at 0VU with my peaks. I stay around -18DBFS with it switched to -10
Click to expand...

Which inputs are you using? Channels 1-4 are (apparently) +4 when the pad switches are engaged, and presumably "instrument level" when the switches are out.

mesaboogie5050 said:
But my question there is, am I getting more noise floor? Because I do not have isolated rooms, when in mastering I turn the acoustic guitar or vocals up, you can also hear the noise floor a LOT. So I'm thinking I should just record hotter. Would I get less of a noise floor on +4?
Click to expand...

That depends on where the noise is getting in. If it's getting in before the point where you turn it up you'll just turn up the noise along with everything else. I'm sure we can figure this out. I assume your preamp is a "one knob" type, with a gain control and no output control.

mesaboogie5050 said:
The +4 I can use if I turn the pre amp down, but then I can't really hit 0vu which the manual tells me I want to hit. I can hit 0vu safely with it at -10.
Click to expand...

We're back to my question about which inputs you're using and if the pads are engaged. Then there's the issue of the way the converters are designed (0dBFS = 16dBu) which seems to make 0dBVU on your preamp become -12dBFS in the Pro 40.
 
No, my preamp has gain, impedance, low cut filter, output control and some other things.

I turn the gain up a bit to get the tube, and then I work with the output control.

I just tried it again, and +4 was just way too loud. I had to turn the pre amp down to where the meters were barely moving to get a low enough signal. Only the first two inputs have pads.

I have the pre amp in inputs 3 and 4. They are line level inputs, not the mic inputs. No pads.

I like to stay around -18 and that way my peaks aren't too high. With it on +4 I can't drive the pre amp at all and I'm already above -18. It makes it quite a bit louder than in -10 mode.

Can I just continue to use the -10 mode and use the -10 as sort of a pad? Because it seems better than putting it in +4 mode and barely driving the pre amp.
 
mesaboogie5050 said:
Well the pre amps have a switch, for -10 or +4. The saffire does not. I can record at either one. But if I record at +4 the levels are too loud. I just tried it. And I was in the yellow at 0VU with my peaks. I stay around -18DBFS with it switched to -10
Click to expand...
Are you talking peaks at around -18dbfs? That's too low.

mesaboogie5050 said:
But my question there is, am I getting more noise floor? Because I do not have isolated rooms, when in mastering I turn the acoustic guitar or vocals up, you can also hear the noise floor a LOT. So I'm thinking I should just record hotter. Would I get less of a noise floor on +4?
Click to expand...
You will be getting more noise floor of the saffire and probably the preamp (depending on how they are getting the attenuation) The noise floor of the room will not change no matter which setting you use.

mesaboogie5050 said:
The +4 I can use if I turn the pre amp down, but then I can't really hit 0vu which the manual tells me I want to hit. I can hit 0vu safely with it at -10.
Click to expand...
So turn it down a bit. My guess is that you are recording too softly, at least softer than you need to, anyway.
 
Farview said:
Are you talking peaks at around -18dbfs? That's too low.
Click to expand...

Right. Average levels should be around -18dBFS, with peaks landing where they may as long as they're well below 0dBFS. Percussive sounds are different, set so peaks are between -12dBFS and -6dBFS.
 
No, my peaks are higher than that. I am recording at correct levels. -18 is the average. The peaks can go into the yellow. But around -18 is 0vu on my meter. If I go +4, I can barely drive the pre amp like I said and I'm already at -18.

If I turn it down, I'm not driving the pre amp, which I want to drive. Especially with vocals because of the sound I get with the plate voltage engage and the tube gain up but output level down. If i want to do the same on +4 I have to turn it down quite a bit.
 
I think it's just that the Pro 40 converts a +4dBu signal into -12dBFS. It's probably okay to trim the preamp outputs back as you're doing or set it to -10. Is there a noise level difference between the two?

Also, I assume you're using balanced line cables to make these connections.
 
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