Upgrade...v2.2 to v4 Question (2)

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mark4man

mark4man

MoonMix Studios
OK...

Console View...

Busses...

In SONAR 2.2, I had "Audio & MIDI Modules" on the left, "Auxiliary Busses" in the center; & "V Mains" on the right. I knew what the functionality of each was.

In SONAR4, I have an "Audio & Midi Module Pane" on the left, a "Bus Module Pane" in the center (which contains both Main Busses & Auxiliary Busses) ; & a "Main Out Module Pane" on the right.

Is it as simple as the Bus Module Pane in v4 takes the place of the Auxiliary Busses in v2.2?

I don't think so...because:

In v2.2, the assignment description for the Aux Busses reads:
"Output To: A (ASIO Sound Card 1-2, 3-4, etc.)";
& the assignment description for the V Mains reads:
"Output To: ASIO Sound Card 1-2, 3-4", etc.
The signal flow would then be: Tracks > Aux Bus > V Mains.

In v4, the assignment description for the Main Busses reads:
"Output To: ASIO Sound Card 1-2, 3-4", etc.;
& the description for the Main Outs reads:
"ASIO Sound Card 1-2, 3-4", etc.

It's like they have split up the V Mains.

Right?

Why the split (or is it)?

It looks like the signal flow is now: Tracks > Aux Bus > Main Bus > V Mains (right?)

Wouldn't that add latency?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks,

mark4man
 
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Sounds like more flexability doesn't it;) now why would they do that.
 
I'll sit thru this session if you don`t mind. I`m comfortably used to 2.2 and would like to see more discussion on the benefits of 4. I can see a couple of routing options that are cool. But I also see more heavy graphics to go along with it that would eat on the processing.
 
The changes were actually implemented in V3.

The section to the right represents your hardware outs - i.e., your sound cards ports. They are not VMains, they represent your physical hardware, and you will notice that you can not patch any effects to them, nor put any envelopes on them.

The center section is ALL your busses - aux buses, sub-busses and main busses. I don't believe they use the terminology VMains any longer, probably because of the introduction of sub-busses. The only thing that really distinguishes a sub-bus from a main bus is which tracks you have routed to the bus. And actually you could have a project that doesn't even use a Main Bus - i.e., you could have a couple of sub-busses routed directly to your sound card.

The right section, of course, is your tracks.


Solution - don't use Console View. :)

Actually the one thing you can do in Console View that you can not do in Track View is to check the meter on your sound card outs for clipping. This would be particularly important if you were working with a project that only had sub-busses, and the sound card is where everything is being summed.
 
Toki987 said:
I'll sit thru this session if you don`t mind. I`m comfortably used to 2.2 and would like to see more discussion on the benefits of 4. I can see a couple of routing options that are cool. But I also see more heavy graphics to go along with it that would eat on the processing.
Click to expand...

Toki, you actually posted this while I was writing my answer. The routing options are the entire key here. Complete flexibility.

You can route tracks to a sub-bus. Say background vocals. This gives you a single point of control for the background vocals as a group, while still giving you individual control over each part by using the track controls.

You can also route sub-busses to other sub-busses. Take the above example where I have BGV's on a sub-bus. I can then create another sub-bus which routes the lead vocal to it, and also route the BGV sub-bus to it. Now I have a single control point for ALL the vocals, while also having control of the BGV's as a group, AND while also having individual control over each part at the track level.

Same deal with drums. Create a sub-bus for your drum kit. Now you control the kit as a single item, and still have control over each individual drum.

The only way to accomplish this stuff in version 2 and earlier was to use awkward workarounds - since a track could ONLY be routed to an Aux Bux or a VMain.

The new routing scheme was the single selling point for me shelling out the cash for the S3 upgrade. I still haven't found an equal reason to go to S4.
 
Pretty cool, those routing options would allow for simplifying a mix for some complex arrangements, as you decribed, still keeping off the mains, as well as not having to navigate a screen full of indi tracks. I like that, I`d rather look at parent submixes with the child submixes accordingly, than a screen full of indi tracks...of course providing I did my work correctly in the indi`s and the submixes.
 
dachay,

Thanks.

I understand what your sayin' (& agree now that I understand)...but I'd have to say that the Main Outs (the Hardware Outs) are the V Mains, since it looks like that's the last stop for the signal; & since it looks like the Main Bus can be bypassed.

Before (prior to v3), the Busses labeled A, B, C, etc., corresponded to your sound card's output drivers (A:1-2, B:3-4, etc.) They were the V Mains; & the signal that passed thru them was routed directly to the hdwe. Looking at the flow chart in the SONAR XL 2.2 manual, they used to split the signal off (pre & post master fader) & route that thru the Aux Bus; to then join back into the Track Section to flow into the V Mains. But now the ABC's are associated with the Bus Section.

The flow chart in the SONAR4 manual leaves a little to be desired. They don't identify the Track Section (which is no big deal since it's obvious)...but I'm not seeing a Bus Section (Mains & Aux's) & they don't show where the Meter taps in for the Hardware Outs.

I opened up a multi-output project in Console View today & checked it out again to get a better handle.

The key that then helped me was discovering I could route individual tracks to the Main Bus section...or bypass the Main Bus section; & route directly to the Main Outs (or Hardware Outs, as you say.)

And I think what originally threw me off was...when I opened up projects in v4 I had created in v2.2, track outputs were automatically assigned as A:1-2, B:3-4, etc., meaning that they were routed to the Main Bus instead of the Main Out.

What I think I should do now (in transferring projects over to SONAR4), is...after first preserving the v2.2 files by doing a "Save", then do a "Save As", then open the Save As's in SONAR4; & reassign all tracks to the Main Outs. Then the tracks that I need to route out to the Main Buss for various sub-mix & multiple track FX functions will be easier to keep track of (no pun intended.)

Thanks again,

mark4man
 
mark4 -

You can view the hardware outs as VMains. I don't think it will mislead you in any significant way.

However, the reason they are not actually VMains is, first, they are not "Virtual." They are, in fact, hardware mains. Not virtual in any way. Secondly, you could patch effects to and use volume envelopes on VMains. You can not do this on the hardware mains. (Note they do not even appear in Track View.)

What I normally do is to set up a Bus that I name Master Bus. Usually this is the "final" destination for everything (tracks, sub-mixes, Aux buses, etc.), and this then is routed to the hardware outs. To my mind, this is more equivalent to what was called a VMain in Sonar 2.

So, for example, if you wanted to use any mastering effects, you would place them on the Master Bus. You could not do this if you route everything directly to the hardware mains.

Ultimately alot depends on how you work. The great thing about the routing in S3 and S4 is that it allows you to work the way you want to work.
 
dachay,

You're absolutely right.

I realized last nite that I would need at least one active Bus for finished mix processing (e.g., limiter across the output, etc.)

Then I logged on today & found your Master bus method. I could even do that with "A" (since they're renamable.)

Thanks,

mark4man
 
Hello All...

I have to thow in a question here that has been continually confusing me. What is the difference between an "Aux-Bus" and a "Sub-bus"?

My understanding is that one would route an entire signal of a track to a sub-bus and only route some of the signal of a track to an aux bus using the send/return controls?

....

-One would use an Aux-Bus for an effect like reverb so that you may control the amount of reverb independently on each track.
-One would use a Sub-bus for an effect that you would like to apply uniformly to all the tracks being routed to it, but more commonly just for controlling volume?

What if you are routing two overheads, a snare and a kick to a sub-bus so that the volume of the set can be controled as a unit, but also need to run the snare through an aux bus with reverb on it?

Am I off on all of this?

Sorry for the large quantity of questions and confusion.

Thank you.

Cheers,
Scott
 
Scott,

You're right in your assumptions. Look at the flow chart in the manual. Aux Bus is parallel (split)...controlled via Sends. All others would be serial (in-line)...controlled via Assignments. Look at some of the presets in Sonitus: fx Reverb...set up as "Aux:", especially for that split configuration.

mark4man
 
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