Too much Low End - Suggestions?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Phuturistic
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bennychico11 said:
"There is a common myth that small rooms cannot reproduce low frequencies because they are not large enough for the waves to "develop" properly...
I thought it was a myth too benny - now I'm living in one and I can tell you - it's a myth that it is a myth. In addition to the standing waves that create relatively huge nulls in most of the mixing area there is really no use setting up a 4 foot monitoring triangle in here. The room is just too small. The only place the bass accumulates or develops so I can hear it is naturally in the rear edges of the room. There is no way to make critical bass judgements. In a larger room the bass accumulates differently.

Don't be tellin me I've got a myth here - be glad you don't have to deal with a small room - it's really pissin me off! (ED: well not too much :) )
 
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1.) Throwing a subwoofer at a setup/environment problem is throwing water on a grease fire. All it will do is exascerbate and complicate the bass problems inherant in the current layout. Not to mention that getting a sub inplies that there is a weakness in the response of the main monitors themselves. While there may be more than a few people on this board that do not prefer the sound of the 824s, I don't think there is anybody who'll say that they are so deficient as to require subwoofers in order to be able to properly mix bass.

Throwing hardware at this problem is a waste of money that ignores the real cause of the problem.

2.) NL5 has it right; changing the desk setup can and will make a huge difference. Sometimes only 6" or a foot can make a difference of several dB in response. Getting the desk out of the corner (if possible) can make even more of a difference. Combine the two - get the desk out of the corner and fine-tune the positions of the speakers once you do that - and there is a good chance he might be able to get away without spending a dime on bass traps. If he still has a bass problem after that, it will at least not be as bad and be easier to tame with such acoustic treatments.

3.) As far as the whole myth vs. non-myth thing with bass in a small room: Kylen, while I sympathize with your situation and believe you do have a true problem, it may be supporting anecdotal evidence, but it does not prove the rule.

I have a musician freind who has a small project studio setup in what was the smallest bedroom of his house. Many of us would laugh at the gear and the setup. His room is maybe 8'x10' if it's an inch, and for recording he has one MXL V69 and one SM58 going into a $99 mixer (Alesis MultiMix 6). The mixer is connected to his computer running Adobe Audition via his stock Soundblaster card. He monitors via a better-than-average sounding pair of Altec Lansing computer speakers (no sub).
    Attached is a picture of what it looks like from his seat in his studio "cockpit" (the PC is off-camera to the right on the same desktop that the mixer is sitting on.) Note the the bookshelf/wall immediately in the background behind the Pod. The wall on the right is right at the rear of that desktop that's holding the mixer and the document scanner in the background. The left wall is maybe about a foot to the left of left edge of the pictured Korg keyboard (he has a compact fly fishing fly-tying station against that wall ;) ).

And that's it. About 3 feet behind the photographer is a closet and a door to the hallway. Very tiny room, just a taste claustrophobic (and warm) when you get two people in there. Three people could maybe fit in if nobody sat down.

Sure the room is tiny and the gear less than stellar (though I do rather like that V69 ;) ). And sure he has designs on moving his stuff to a larger space, which would be great. But the fact is he has that room designed with plenty of variety of natural textures in the form of bookshelves, small desks, window curtains, and flat surfaces (including hardwood floor), quality selection of spekers matched to the room, and he takes his time getting the tracking good to begin with (not all necessarily in that room) and takes his time actually *mixing* his work.

My point is, this guy has zero bass response problems outside of the limitations of his computer speakers (which frankly sound better than your average $250/pr "studio monitors"), and his mixes are more balanced than half of the MP3s I have heard posted on this board. I have been in that room, and worked with him in that room, and frankly I would have no problem with the idea of making a quality mix in that room (though I'd do all the mixing ITB and take the Alesis and SB out of my mixing chain ;)).

G.
 

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VSpaceBoy said:
How can you hear sub bass on those monitors?
If you're asking about the computer speakers, first off, he doesn't do hip hop stuff, so there's no 808 bass or anything like that on his mixes to date :).

Second, he has gotten *very* good at tracking, especially considering the equipment he has to work ith on that end (the highest-quality tracking recorder he has had access to is an old Otari 8-track analog open reel, and I think that may finally have crashed on him even.) Is it big studio-quality tracking? of course not. But he at least is that the point now where his only major limitations are in his gear, not in his technique. The point is his tracking is pretty clean in the low frequencies.

When there is mud down there, which is not often, it is usually noticable by it's effect on the low end of the regular bass. While the speakers may not be able to accurately reproduce sub bass, the effect of bad sub bass is noticable in how the speaker distorts the regular bass by it's failing attempts to recreate the sub bass. Combine that with an RTA if necessary to verify the source of the problem, and some high pass filtering to correct it, and all is copacetic.

I got kind of scattershot in my point on the last post. My real point was that he is working in not much more than a walk-in closet and yet though a combination of factors other than the size of the room, he manages to put out balanced mixes. Are they THX-ready or really stupendous quality? No. Are thy just as good or better than half the mixes made (not just here on this board) in larger rooms with better monitors? Yep.

G.
 
Hmm.. well looking back I'm not sure why I thought he was mixing hip hop but I did for some reason.

The reason I brought it up is because I will mix techno on occasion and have been bit not paying attention to sub bass in the synths. (tracking not an issue) Then I hit the car (or other systen where sub bass is exagerated for effect) and all hell breaks loose.
 
$.02

it's kinda late on this post for a primer on the physics of sound so no long tutorial... couldn't best glenn or ethan anyhow .... however for those newbies just joining the program already in progress... we talk about sound as waves...
and the natural visual we get is the rolling of the ocean... watching the beer can in the distance bobbing hapilly along... but thats not exactly the way it works... imagine a closed box.. we know it has finite space and medium (air) in there... so ya have to ask yourself where's the bobbing beer can??
it aint gonna happen... now imagine that you pressurize the room... we've added more air and could even measure the difference in pressure... got it???
so our waves are reall like passing along bands of pressure.... let that sink in... little walls if you will of higher and lower pressure being passed along the box (room) thats central point 1...
central point 2... phase relationships... now go back to your original idea of the wave floating along only this time i want you to imagine the typical drawing of a wave~~~~~~~~ now if my keyboard was cool i could just below that string of "waves" post another but these would go down where the first went up... in otherwords they would be the oposite.. this we would call out of phase.... the importance of this concept is that if we add these two out of phase waves we would get ...CLASS???? nuthin... correct...
point three lame attempt to tie it together.... imagine again our "new paradigm" for the wave... as it bounces between the walls it continueously pass other waves as it makes its return trip to origin... as it incounters other waves it sums with them sometimes in phase sometimes not... so the end result is that it alternates between reinforceing (in phase) and subtracting (out of phase)... make sense???? so the point that glenn and others have tried to make is if we can controll the continuouse bouncing of the wave we can acheive better mixes.... and ALL protestations to the contrary... its gonna be that way until i figure out how to rewrite physics... remember there'll be a quiz on tues.... someone else want to tell them about the difference between the way low/mid/highs????
 
dementedchord said:
it's kinda late on this post for a primer on the physics of sound so no long tutorial... couldn't best glenn or ethan anyhow .... however for those newbies just joining the program already in progress... we talk about sound as waves...
and the natural visual we get is the rolling of the ocean... watching the beer can in the distance bobbing hapilly along... but thats not exactly the way it works... imagine a closed box.. we know it has finite space and medium (air) in there... so ya have to ask yourself where's the bobbing beer can??
it aint gonna happen... now imagine that you pressurize the room... we've added more air and could even measure the difference in pressure... got it???
so our waves are reall like passing along bands of pressure.... let that sink in... little walls if you will of higher and lower pressure being passed along the box (room) thats central point 1...
central point 2... phase relationships... now go back to your original idea of the wave floating along only this time i want you to imagine the typical drawing of a wave~~~~~~~~ now if my keyboard was cool i could just below that string of "waves" post another but these would go down where the first went up... in otherwords they would be the oposite.. this we would call out of phase.... the importance of this concept is that if we add these two out of phase waves we would get ...CLASS???? nuthin... correct...
point three lame attempt to tie it together.... imagine again our "new paradigm" for the wave... as it bounces between the walls it continueously pass other waves as it makes its return trip to origin... as it incounters other waves it sums with them sometimes in phase sometimes not... so the end result is that it alternates between reinforceing (in phase) and subtracting (out of phase)... make sense???? so the point that glenn and others have tried to make is if we can controll the continuouse bouncing of the wave we can acheive better mixes.... and ALL protestations to the contrary... its gonna be that way until i figure out how to rewrite physics... remember there'll be a quiz on tues.... someone else want to tell them about the difference between the way low/mid/highs????
thats a pretty good analogy, but you make it sound like youd want full absorption. my room sucks and i havent done anything to it yet, but its my understanding that you dont want to 'kill' the acoustics of the room - just trap and contain unwanted frequencies depending on the room itself. am i wrong? my room is small and seems to make everything sound 'bright' so im under the assumption that id want to tame the mid/high frequency stuff. i have yet to figure out the best way to go about doing that in my current room, but im working on it.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
... 3.) As far as the whole myth vs. non-myth thing with bass in a small room: Kylen, while I sympathize with your situation and believe you do have a true problem, it may be supporting anecdotal evidence, but it does not prove the rule...
OK - I know you and benny and other folks have some good feedback on this issue - I'm kinda in the same boat as the thread originator...nothing below 300Hz can be balanced properly. I have to take it out to my moblile critical listening room (Ford F150) to hear the bass relationship to the mids and highs - exactly as Phuturistic mentions. This is the classic bass standing wave vs room mode situation.

My previously stated "feeling" is that some situations aren't curable using bass traps, the problem may be changed a bit but you still get some type of suck bass response, it's just different. I think even the esteemed Mr. Winer has noted that some situations still suck even after treating (am I wrong here?). I've kinda given up hope till I move but now that I'm thinking about what has been said here...

...I'm gonna be my own Mythbuster! :D

I thought it was the small overstuffed room since the "Q" of the bass nulls is really low (the nulls are between 1 and 2 octaves wide - that's a lot of bass null!) I have to walk 4 or 5 feet just to hear the bass oomph. Maybe that's just the nature of smal rooms (10'x10' and smaller) In my former larger room the bass nulls were 1/3 octave or less and I could move my head a few inches to find a balance. But the fact that the Ford F-150 allows critical bass judgements kinda kills the small room idea I guess. The cab is probably more like 5'x5'. There's something not accounted for. This has been discussed before on many forums - the mobile critical listening room (car or truck). It may amount to something like you would see in a waterfall graph depicting bass decay time, kinda like RT60 measurement for the total reverb decay time. Possibly the bass is either absorbed by the doors and body and converted to some other energy form (shortening the bass decay and tightening it up) - or it escapes out into the world thus also affecting bass accumulation and bass "RT60" (whatever thats called). You know that a lot of the bass energy passes out the vehicle body - that's what we hear in traffic everyday...

Sorry for the long wind - I expect some criticism if anyone has had the time to read the rant here. What I'm gonna do is grab a couple of Ethans mini-traps to put in here and see what diff it makes. I've been considering this for a while (tired of my DIY rock wool decorations!) I need them for the new house anyway so here goes...
 
kylen said:
My previously stated "feeling" is that some situations aren't curable using bass traps, the problem may be changed a bit but you still get some type of suck bass response, it's just different. I think even the esteemed Mr. Winer has noted that some situations still suck even after treating (am I wrong here?).
Agreed.

I almost think that my buddy's situation I describe is just as much luck as almost anything else. I have nothing tangible to base this on, and can't defend it as anything other than a gut feeling, but I get the feeling when I sit in his room that if we put my 824s in there it would actually sound worse than his little Altecs do; that they'd be too much monitor for that room.

I think there is such a thng as matching monitors to room.

Upon reflection (pun intended :)), I think there might be another related factor there; this guy typically moitors at lower average levels than many of us do. It's suprising; this guy has been playing guitar on stage (usually with no plugs) for more bands than I can count for as long as I've known him (going on 25 years now), and yet his hearing is still very sensitive- even mor ethan mine. I am often straining to hear the TV when at his house :). I rarely do my mixes at 85dBSPL for very long and usually will drop it down into the 70s somewhere for the majority of my work. I'm sure he averages signifigantly quieter volumes when he works at his mixes, just because his ears are that much more sensitive. The lower volume may help take the room out of the equation somewhat. That's just a guess, though.

G.
 
I think that moving my desk to a center location between the two walls adjacent to my rear wall could definitely prove to be beneficial to my situation. I'm no expert on how room acoustics work, and to be honest, if I planned on building a serious studio room, I would probably bring someone in who understands it way more than I do. It seems the learning curve on understanding how sound waves interact in various environments is large enough on its own.

As far as buying a subwoofer to assist in my mixing low frequencies, I've found that the 824's have done a sufficient job in helping me understand how specific low frequencies are interacting with my mix, (even though the room is altering how I'm hearing them to an extent) and as I said before, I monitor at VERY reasonable levels, and given the proximity my head is to the speakers (NL5 asked about where my head was height-wise in relation to the monitors, my ears are about level with the bottom of the tweeters on the 824's), I'm doing what I can to take the room out of the equation as much as possible.

In fact, on the rear of the 824's is a switch that allows you to adjust a hi-pass cutoff, and I have it set at 47 hz. Even for hip-hop, I've found myself placing the kicks around 75 to 90 hz, and I'm not putting much more in below that. And when I listen to my mixes in my car's Bose system, the frequency positions of the kick and bass seem to be right where I wanted them, its the amount of level at those positions in relation to the mids and highs which is causing the problems. But I'm not having problems knowing where to place low end instruments like the kick and bass lines on the frequency spectrum.
 
I was asking where your monitors are placed height wise. You do NOT want the center of the woofer to be anywhere near the halfway mark. (or your ear level either - I would measure both and see where you are at)
 
Hollowdan said:
I agree with NYmorningstar that if you have too much bass, then adding bass traps to your mixing room would actually be the opposite way to go.
MY suggestion:!

Hey, I don't even agree with NYMorningstar.

I was asking questions about the not so obvious and the guys straightened it out like they normally do here. Thank you, thank you. You guys never get enough thanks if you ask me :)

Actually I'm kinda glad it stimulated some good argument. Sitting in the null created from reflections makes alot of sense in explaining why he was mixing more bass then he needed to.
 
NYMorningstar said:
...Actually I'm kinda glad it stimulated some good argument. Sitting in the null created from reflections makes alot of sense in explaining why he was mixing more bass then he needed to.
I agree - it pushed me over the edge to order 2 mondo traps I'd been thinking about for a while...no time like the present!
http://realtraps.com/products.htm#mondotraps
 
Just another day for...

BICYCLE REPAIR MAN!

G.
 
kylen said:
...My previously stated "feeling" is that some situations aren't curable using bass traps, the problem may be changed a bit but you still get some type of suck bass response, it's just different. I think even the esteemed Mr. Winer has noted that some situations still suck even after treating (am I wrong here?). I've kinda given up hope till I move but now that I'm thinking about what has been said here...

...I'm gonna be my own Mythbuster! :D
OK - 2 of Ethans Winer's Black Mondo Traps installed...I had to move some stuff around and brought the speakers out from the wall so the Mondos are behind the speakers and in the corners - more or less. It's really hard to A/B this kind of thing but in listening to my reference material I'm really more aware of the texture and quality of the mids...so something has drastically changed (duh) that I might want to measure at some point. I'm picking up a lot of rear reflections so I gotta look at that too (cupping the hands over the ears like Micky Mouse drastically focuses and increases the himids of the forward sound). No worries, change is good, my other studio deal fell thru so I'll have to make this dungeon work! :cool:

Anyway I think the bass quality is improved (at the mixing position) and the bass-to-mid relationship will be much easier to distinguish once I fix a few mid reflections. There are still bass peak/nulls in here (this is expected) but I think I can move them by adjusting the bass traps location and maintain a relatively balanced mix location. Money well spent. More later...
 
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