To Plek, or Not to Plek? That Is My Question

  • Thread starter Thread starter Old Music Guy
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I think the majority of PLEK machines are in the hands of manufacturers (Gibson, G&L, Suhr, Martin, etc) and larger dealers. I don't think you'll find many builders who do a couple of dozen guitars a year are going down that path. Likewise Mom and Pop shops aren't likely to have them, especially since you need to have software for specific guitars.

Places like Sweetwater are big enough to front the cost and use it as a service. I'm sure it takes far less time to do a PLEK that most luthiers will spend with files and sandpaper.

I don't think anyone is saying a good luthier can't do an outstanding setup and fret dress. It's more a case of a PLEK should be able to give more consistent results in a manufacturing situation in less time. One trained operator can set up 3 or 4 machines to run the process which is more efficient than having 3 or 4 people taking several hours each to do the work. I think Martin had 3 machines years ago.

One thing that I would be interested in seeing would be to take a hand finished neck that was done, and then scan it on the machine to see if it meets the spec of a Plek job. I don't know of anyone who had done it, but I'm sure it's been tested somewhere.
 
TalismanRich said:
One thing that I would be interested in seeing would be to take a hand finished neck that was done, and then scan it on the machine to see if it meets the spec of a Plek job. I don't know of anyone who had done it, but I'm sure it's been tested somewhere.
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I’ve done the opposite many times. When I was in Athens I had to work on PLEK’d Nashville Gibson models all the time. They always played better after I dressed the frets. The fact is that if my leveling file is straight then my end results are straight. My eye can see any unevenness when I reflect the light into the top of the frets.

My good friend who owns Mass St Music in Lawrence Ks has a PLEK machine which they use for general repair and setups.

I stand by my opinion that the work on guitars being PLEK’d should cost less than the work on guitars with hand finished frets.
 
I think the machine makes sense (kind of) in a production environment. I know Gibson pleks everything now. I've gotten three guitars from them in the last year and they've been good to go. Of course, the guitars I've gotten from them before the Plek were always good, too.

Today I think people worry too much about things like a perfect setup, etc. vs just playing. Lots of great music and playing was done on non-plek'd production guitars.
 
Scott Baxendale said:
So the consumer should be paying double just so the shop can pay off their machine? So, what happens when it’s paid for? That is sort of like a Toll road where they okidoke the tax payers by saying that once the bridge is paid for the toll will stop. This happens like NEVER

Can I charge my customer more if I decide to purchase a tool that will make the job a little easier? I’ve never been able to do that in 50 years of this work.
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Should the customer pay more, maybe not. But to get a reasonable ROI on the machine, that's what has to happen to not lose money on the machine.

firefighters and paramedics should make more money than football players, but they don't because they don't generate as much revenue as football, so they get paid more. That doesn't make the firefighters "chopped liver".
 
Farview said:
Should the customer pay more, maybe not. But to get a reasonable ROI on the machine, that's what has to happen to not lose money on the machine.

firefighters and paramedics should make more money than football players, but they don't because they don't generate as much revenue as football, so they get paid more. That doesn't make the firefighters "chopped liver".
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My mom had robotic lung cancer surgery, a few years ago, on a robot called the DaVinci Machine which is a state of the art surgical robot. It costs $1.5 million but the Dr still made more for the procedure than the machine made, I think? They didn’t really charge her more for the procedure than it would have cost had they done it the old way either.

ROI is a $2 term to mean profit margin. The profit margin should not be more for the machine than it is for the skilled human, in fact it should be the opposite. IMO, The tech-bro cult of greed mentality has reversed that dynamic…..you know: “money for nuthin….and fees for thee.”

A better analogy is that a teacher should make as much as a dentist.

It takes as long and is at least as hard to become an expert luthier as it does to be a Dentist for a fraction of the pay. That skill should be worth considerably more to the customer than a robot fret dress.
 
Scott Baxendale said:
It takes as long and is at least as hard to become an expert luthier as it does to be a Dentist for a fraction of the pay. That skill should be worth considerably more to the customer than a robot fret dress.
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Did you outlay roughly $150-200k at luthier school, have to buy $50 to 70K of basic equipment? A dentist today will spend years in school before getting a license, and that chair, xray machine, assorted drills, and supplies isn't free. Medical insurance is high. When was the last time you got sued for malpractice on a fret job? That dentist office isn't in someone's workshop or garage.

One of my best guitars was made in a concrete block building next to as appliance repair shop. Would you go to a dentist in a building like this? FWIW, it has the finest fretwork of any of my guitars. Gerard made outstanding guitars.

gerard.webp


If you buy a Plek, that alone costs over $250K. If a shop does 1 a day, 5 days a week, that's 200 jobs/yr. If you want to amortize that machine over 5 years, you're figuring the machine cost is $250 per job. Then you have time (figure an hour or so for setup and operation) at $75/hour? There are supplies that are needed, plus maintenance. You are up to about $325 right there just to do the job, not counting overhead for the building, etc. PLEK even has TCO information on their website.

The machine isn't getting paid, the shop owner is recouping his investment. That's why Tweedle Dee's guitar shop that sells 15 guitars a month and works on maybe a dozen per week is not going to have a Plek. But if they have an outstanding guy who can do amazing setups for $150, word will get around.

How long does a fret dress, crown and polish take? 2 hours? 3 hours? You know what your time is worth, with taxes, insurance, wages, etc. You need to charge enough to cover your time and expenses. Plek owners need to do the same.
 
Scott Baxendale said:
My mom had robotic lung cancer surgery, a few years ago, on a robot called the DaVinci Machine which is a state of the art surgical robot. It costs $1.5 million but the Dr still made more for the procedure than the machine made, I think? They didn’t really charge her more for the procedure than it would have cost had they done it the old way either.

ROI is a $2 term to mean profit margin. The profit margin should not be more for the machine than it is for the skilled human, in fact it should be the opposite. IMO, The tech-bro cult of greed mentality has reversed that dynamic…..you know: “money for nuthin….and fees for thee.”
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That hospital did charge enough to pay off the cost on the DaVinci machine over 5 years. Otherwise, they wouldn't have bought it.

Return On Investment is not just profit.

If a Plek machine fret job costs more than a skilled luthier, the luthier should be charging more than they do. The trick to that would be to have a better marketing campaign than the Plek people do.
 
Maybe we shouldn’t embrace technology as much as we do

Plek machines have been around for awhile. Due to the cost they haven’t replaced skilled craftsmen…… yet

Now fast forward to AI. You can get the computer to not only write, but perform your song, including vocals.

Yeah….. nifty, neat, cool.

But how long for any of us to be completely obsolete along with the skills passed down through the generations?

I don’t think technology skeptics are a bad thing.
 
I'm already "obsolete". The entire division that I worked in for 40+ years has been shut down, the 20+ manufacturing plants (our customers) that I dealt with for years are all closed down. We went from making a couple hundred million pounds of stuff to making 0 in about 10 years. Luckily I'm old enough to suck on the government teet after paying into Social Security all my life.
 
RFR said:
Maybe we shouldn’t embrace technology as much as we do.
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I agree with that.
For example: Masonry has been and always will be a "hands on job" best performed by people who possess the skills to lay brick and mortar.
 
RFR said:
Now fast forward to AI. You can get the computer to not only write, but perform your song, including vocals.
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Like it or not, there are millions of young people in this world who are embracing and welcoming AI into their lives simply because they are incapable of reading books, incapable of thinking for themselves, completely reliant upon shoes that don't require a shoe tying skill, so on and so forth.

All of this AI bullshit crap like ChatGPT and Deepseek is not at all helpful to the human species in the long term.
 
60's guy said:
Like it or not, there are millions of young people in this world who are embracing and welcoming AI into their lives simply because they are incapable of reading books, incapable of thinking for themselves, completely reliant upon shoes that don't require a shoe tying skill, so on and so forth.

All of this AI bullshit crap like ChatGPT and Deepseek is not at all helpful to the human species in the long term.
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Sorry about that. I should've posted my thoughts at PT.
 
So the Terminators are selling PLEK machines? That I would NOT have expected.

Wow.. this thread has run off the rails fast! :LOL:
 
RFR said:
How long could “to plek or not to plek” go on? It was bound to morph into something. :LOL:
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I had no idea it would morph into this, but it's been fun. Interesting to hear the stories of people whose lives has been impacted by robots/AI.
Just as an afterthought, I read a review of the PRS SE that was intriguing. Not that I need another guitar, but, WTF. I looked it up on Swe****er and sells for $1600 with a gig bag.
BUT, for another $299.00, I can have it Plek'ed! Oh, happy day!
Why, In God's name would I spend $1600 on a brand new PRS, and even feel the need to have it Plek'ed? That's insane. Even if I felt the "need" to have work done on a brand new PRS, I would ship it to @Scott Baxendale, have him do his magic, and have it sent back. If I added up the shipping costs, and Scott's cost, it would STILL be cheaper than a Plek. (And maybe Scott would sign it for me)
 
TalismanRich said:
Did you outlay roughly $150-200k at luthier school, have to buy $50 to 70K of basic equipment? A dentist today will spend years in school before getting a license, and that chair, xray machine, assorted drills, and supplies isn't free. Medical insurance is high. When was the last time you got sued for malpractice on a fret job? That dentist office isn't in someone's workshop or garage.
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I dropped out of college and went to work at a small guitar factory, Mossman Guitars in Winfield Ks. I got paid $2.35 per hour. Three years later I was a shop foreman making $3.50 per hour. It takes a luthier as long or longer to learn every part and design change of every make and model from every year that it takes to become expert vintage guitar restorer. I’ve got well over $200k invested in tools and equipment in my shop. My tools are as expensive and precise as the tools used in a dentist office, except for the X-Ray machine.

Insurance in general is too high, and I have yet to be sued.

A PLEK machine is $125.000, not $250k. It’s nothing more than a proprietary CNC machine.

We generally do 15-20 fret dresses per week. It typically takes me 45-60 minutes to do a full level and recrown, which I charge the customer $150. If I pretended to be a PLEK machine I could probably charge double that price, but I’m not willing to be deceitful.

I still stand by my opinion that a PLEK’d fret dress should cost less than having it done professionally by hand.


Lastly, in most guitar forums more than half the players think paying over $500 for any electric guitar is a ripoff. These same folks would rather buy a new cheap import neck for their Strat than pay $450 for a refret……then the same guy doesn’t think twice about paying $300 to get his neck PLEK’d? He plays his $200 Squier through a $3k amp with 30 pedals.

Guitar players are generally not very smart.
 
Some years back, I needed a fret dress on an acoustic. I took it to the shop where I originally bought it. I think it was $100 to have them dressed and leveled. When it came back it was AWFUL! Rough frets, the nut was low on the B string. I complained, and they said they would have their guy redo it, but after seeing his work, I said no way. I think they gave me a $25 refund.

I ended up taking it home, and had some 2000 grit paper that is used to polish printing cylinders, and some steel wool. I got a piece of bone nut for a couple of bucks and ground enough to fill the slot with bone and super glue. It was about 2 days work to fix the hack job. In the end it was a good playing guitar, not thanks to their "luthier". FWIW, that shop is no longer in business.

Basic setups, truss rod adjustments etc aren't a problem. I do them all the time, but I don't have the tools to do full nut cutting, or a fret level. There are two fellows locally who I know do great work, but one tends to be fairly pricey and turn around time is usually measured in weeks. I haven't had the other do any work, but he has a really good reputation. I may have him redo the frets on my Dean acoustic. The first 5 are developing nice divots, and it's starting to get some buzzing somewhere.
 
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