Time Signatures...

[fraserhutch]

You are trying to teach the exception before the rule. Probably 95% or better of 6/8 is compound meter (especially in popular music), and it is taught that way in introductory music theory.

Exactly. However, I would argue that you would be hard pressed to find any literate usage that engages the exception. I've been playing for 25 years, and I cannot think of a single instance in jazz or commercial work where I have encountered such a usage.

Now, granted, that vast majority of my work involved reading, and therefore the composers/arrangers would have been wary of pulling sonething like whose only purpose would be to throw a monkey wrench into the proceedings, potentially wasting everyone's time and money. However, I have also not encountered such a usage in the legit world either. Ultimately, there should be rhyme and reason behind usage.

 

[killthepixelnow]

Cannibal Corpse uses weird tempi for almost every song the had: 7/8 and 5/4 are the favorite ones. Necrophagist and all the tech death metal horde follows the same path: 13/8 and 6/4

 

[RAK]

I'm just saying, that as I've been formally studying music for 14 years, and graduated from DePaul University School of Music as a percussionist, I've seen a lot of time signatures in my day. You're absolutely correct about the way West Side Story is written, that's what I thought.

I've certainly played lots of music in 6/8 where the groupings were other than 3+3. Again, they're just eight notes. I'll have to go through my (very small) library at home and see what I can dig up.

This is a very difficult topic to discuss/explain over the internet, as with many topics on this board.

 

[easlern]

This one's pretty basic but it hasn't been said yet: find out where the downbeat is, usually the beat that gets emphasis. That's 1. Count beats until another downbeat and you've got a basic idea of what time signature a song is in. For instance, if you listen to "Money" by Pink Floyd, start 1 on the downbeat and count until you hear the bass riff repeat. That'll give you the idea it's in 7/X time. The X doesn't really matter unless you're going to transcribe your song for someone. The X is usually larger than the first number though. Most common songs are in 4/4 (rock), 2/4 (two-step), 3/4 (waltz), 6/8 (drinking songs come to mind for some reason?), or 7/8 (weird prog-rock stuff). Hope this helps!

 

[RAK]

This one's pretty basic but it hasn't been said yet: find out where the downbeat is, usually the beat that gets emphasis. That's 1. Count beats until another downbeat and you've got a basic idea of what time signature a song is in. For instance, if you listen to "Money" by Pink Floyd, start 1 on the downbeat and count until you hear the bass riff repeat. That'll give you the idea it's in 7/X time. The X doesn't really matter unless you're going to transcribe your song for someone. The X is usually larger than the first number though. Most common songs are in 4/4 (rock), 2/4 (two-step), 3/4 (waltz), 6/8 (drinking songs come to mind for some reason?), or 7/8 (weird prog-rock stuff). Hope this helps!

Except Money is in 7/4 (for most of the song anyway).

 

[bennychico11]

I've certainly played lots of music in 6/8 where the groupings were other than 3+3. Again, they're just eight notes.

i agree. There are no set rules with all this. It all depends on what the composer wants. I studied music composition for awhile at the conservatory here in KC and I broke my fair share of the standards. Composers group the notes not only so the musician understands the intended rhythm as well as where the strong beats are supposed to be...but also so that the music is easy to read. Technically if you wanted you could break every beam so that there's just a string of notes through the measures (look at plainsong such as gregorian chants or some classical cadenzas), but this would annoy the hell out of the musician. In 6/8, grouping them in threes helps the musician know where they are at in the measure with regards to the beat.
It's easy to get lost without a standard, but again this can be broken. And if the composers reason for breaking the rule is to help the musician understand the rhythm he's written, then it doesn't matter.

 

[RAK]

Technically if you wanted you could break every beam so that there's just a string of notes through the measures (look at plainsong such as gregorian chants or some classical cadenzas), but this would annoy the hell out of the musician. In 6/8, grouping them in threes helps the musician know where they are at in the measure with regards to the beat.

That wouldn't annoy musicians at all. Having 6 individual 1/8th notes in a 6/8 measure is a very normal thing to do.

But I agree, the standard "default" way of teaching how to write a 6/8 measure with 6 1/8th notes in it is 2 groups of 3.

 

[bennychico11]

That wouldn't annoy musicians at all. Having 6 individual 1/8th notes in a 6/8 measure is a very normal thing to do.

But I agree, the standard "default" way of teaching how to write a 6/8 measure with 6 1/8th notes in it is 2 groups of 3.

well, i'm not talking about just simple 6, eighth notes. I'm talking about breaking the rhyhtms up more with rests, 16th/36nd notes. When you get into even stranger time signatures it can get annoying. This is why even if there are rests involved you will see beams across the rest so the musician can keep track of the beat.

But then again, maybe it's not annoying to percussionists like you...but we wind players have to worry about pitches too
{{just kidding}}

 

[RAK]

well, i'm not talking about just simple 6, eighth notes. I'm talking about breaking the rhyhtms up more with rests, 16th/36nd notes. When you get into even stranger time signatures it can get annoying. This is why even if there are rests involved you will see beams across the rest so the musician can keep track of the beat.

But then again, maybe it's not annoying to percussionists like you...but we wind players have to worry about pitches too
{{just kidding}}

I hear ya,

But let's not go down the band joke road, we'll be here all day.

 

[bigwillz24]

This one's pretty basic but it hasn't been said yet: find out where the downbeat is, usually the beat that gets emphasis. That's 1. Count beats until another downbeat and you've got a basic idea of what time signature a song is in. For instance, if you listen to "Money" by Pink Floyd, start 1 on the downbeat and count until you hear the bass riff repeat. That'll give you the idea it's in 7/X time. The X doesn't really matter unless you're going to transcribe your song for someone. The X is usually larger than the first number though. Most common songs are in 4/4 (rock), 2/4 (two-step), 3/4 (waltz), 6/8 (drinking songs come to mind for some reason?), or 7/8 (weird prog-rock stuff). Hope this helps!

This post was helpful. Time signature for the theory challenged.

 

[bennychico11]

This one's pretty basic but it hasn't been said yet: find out where the downbeat is, usually the beat that gets emphasis. That's 1. Count beats until another downbeat and you've got a basic idea of what time signature a song is in. For instance, if you listen to "Money" by Pink Floyd, start 1 on the downbeat and count until you hear the bass riff repeat. That'll give you the idea it's in 7/X time. The X doesn't really matter unless you're going to transcribe your song for someone. The X is usually larger than the first number though. Most common songs are in 4/4 (rock), 2/4 (two-step), 3/4 (waltz), 6/8 (drinking songs come to mind for some reason?), or 7/8 (weird prog-rock stuff). Hope this helps!

This post was helpful. Time signature for the theory challenged.

becareful though, bigwillz. His post is very very rudimentary and following that can lead you down the wrong way with a lot of songs. The 'X' does matter very much in playing music...not just in transcribing. How are you going to follow the beat unless you know the X? The X is the beat! The bass line can be misleading at times and may not always repeat at the beginning of the second measure. It may in fact repeat on the 3 or 5 measure.

 

[easlern]

Yeah, it's definitely a simplification but should give you a good start.