This sure aint like the old days.....

[Mr Bungle]

Thanks for your patience in advance,..I have a feeling you are going to need it!!!

Well I have decided to try out the way of computer home recording,and I think I may be over my head. Being from old school "hook up mics to guitar,hook up mics to drums and vocals then run it into the old Tascam 4 track hit record and presto a recording" this is hitting me like a Mack truck.

What I am after is to write my own stuff and put it down on computer, like the old days of going to a casette,just now on a computer. Using electric guitar,a drum program(I do have access to a drummer with electronic drums as well) maybe some vocals. More or less to make modest recordings,ala Meshuggah style(hence my favortism to DFH drum software )

I have returned from the music store with inhand, M-audio(Axiom-25,with live lite4 included)which I was told was needed to trigger drum sounds, and Edirol UA-25 audio capture device(which includes Cakewalk Sonar LE) At the risk of sounding vague,......where the hell do I start.

Is this a good start?,is it a bad start? I understand I still need a drum software program, but any pointers to get this up and running would greatly lessen my current state of frustration haha.

Going for a long walk....Kyle.

 

[wheelema]

This is going to be a rather sucky tutorial. Apologies.

You have things (sources) going into your computer, and you have things (output) coming out of your computer. In between you have tremendous power to change what you have recorded; tweak it, enhance it, erase it, etc.

All computer recording setups consist, essentially, of sound entering an analog-to-digital converter (A/D) which converts analog sound to digital data. For the sound to leave the computer you need a digital-to-analog converter (D/A) whereupon you could route the sound to headphones or speakers.

So, first you need a (1) microphone/preamp pair or other source (electric guitar, MIDI). The mic/preamp or other source would plug into the (3) A/D/A converter in some fashion. The soundcard (A/D/A) would route the signal to the (4) computer in some fashion. Some soundcards plug into the PCI buss, others via USB, still others via FireWire, and still others through professional grade interfaces that I am not going to bother to touch on as I will come off sounding like a damn fool.

To get the sound out of the (4) computer it travels back through the (3) soundcard (via a different path) to the (5a) speakers or the (5b) headphones.

In your setup your M-Audio Axiom-25 is a (1) device... something that sends audio. For our purposes we won't go any deeper than this... even if it isn't 110% accurate. You can trigger drum sounds with this, but then again, you could also use expensive drums or cheap drums depending on what you are most comfortable with. An advantage of the cheap drum route is that the interface is far far more intuitive than a keyboard, and the drum sounds are included!!

The Edirol UA-25 is a (3) device, a 'soundcard' (A/D/A) that converts audio to digital and back again. It packs a bit more functionality into it than just A/D/A conversion... as do most soundcards.

You still need a PC in the middle of all of this, which will need a USB interface to accomodate the Edirol.

The missing component in all of this is, of course, the software. And the software is where you are going to have the largest learning curve. Most audio software tends to compete on features, so you may find your self wrestling with FAR more functionality than you want or need. Furthermore, there is a TON of it out there, which just increases the migraine for a beginner.

Hope this helps!

 

[Mr Bungle]

Thank you for your reply,..and most of all patience.

Ok,so it looks like all I basically need is a "recorder/mixer" on my computer.

I have the instument,guitar(would you recommend direct in or mic it?)which is running through a GSP 2101-BBE Maximizer-Roland EQ-to a 50/50 Peavey power amp w/ xlr/direct outputs. This obviously runs through the Edirol into a "mixer/recorder".

Would I be able to use one of the supplied discs for this? Either live lite4 which came with the M-Audio(Axiom 5) , or Cakewalk SonarLe which was supplied with the Edirol unit? I "assume" the Axiom 25 and the Edirol don't run in line or through each other before they hit the computer, or do they?...wow there's a newbie question for you.

If so, essentially I would lay down lets say a guitar track,then do the same later with a drum track or vice-versa? I realise I may be jumping all over, but for some odd reason I can't get my head around it. AHHHHHHH!!......

 

[ErichS]

.. Ok,so it looks like all I basically need is a "recorder/mixer" on my computer.

I have the instument,guitar(would you recommend direct in or mic it?)which is running through a GSP 2101-BBE Maximizer-Roland EQ-to a 50/50 Peavey power amp w/ xlr/direct outputs. This obviously runs through the Edirol into a "mixer/recorder".

Would I be able to use one of the supplied discs for this? Either live lite4 which came with the M-Audio(Axiom 5) , or Cakewalk SonarLe which was supplied with the Edirol unit? I "assume" the Axiom 25 and the Edirol don't run in line or through each other before they hit the computer, or do they?...wow there's a newbie question for you.

If so, essentially I would lay down lets say a guitar track,then do the same later with a drum track or vice-versa? I realise I may be jumping all over, but for some odd reason I can't get my head around it. AHHHHHHH!!......

Sonar LE is your audio recording and MIDI sequencing software. Basically your first step should be to install this on your computer and see if you can get it and the Edirol talking.

The Axiom 5 is a MIDI controller so it just sends MIDI commands to the computer or other MIDI devices. You can hook the Axion to the MIDI connection of the Edirol and send MIDI commands to Sonar or other MIDI devices (I'm not familiar with Live Lite so I cant advise you there)

There are many opininons as whether to record guitar direct or miced (I think the consensus it that a well miced amp sounds best). Direct probably wont sound very good unless you have some type of amp simulator (I don't think sonar LE has one)

 

[Mr Bungle]

Thanks for the reply,..I'll try that and get back.....I'm sure it will all make sense again sometime,....

 

[Dani Pace]

I just wanted to say, "I feel for you." About 5 years ago I began the transisition from analog to digital. In the beginning I was confused as hell! Sometimes I still am. The good news is that the more you "play" with it, the easier it gets. And when you run into a problem the guys (and gals) on this forum are usualy pretty helpful, they answered a lot of questions for me. The more specific your questions, the better answers you will get, and don't be afraid to ask some really dumb ones. We were all new to this once and most of us still remember how confusing it was in the beginning.

 

[Mr Bungle]

Hahaha,...trust me you will hear dumb ones from me alot
When I was going to school for the wonderful world of recording/engineering it was about 13 yrs ago and I believe Pro-tools was a very new concept and the training I did have on it was minimal. I do recall how amazing it was though for what time I did have to play on it.

Insert 13 yrs of bands,moving,everyday life with no connection to the recording world and you have where I am now. Anxious and raring to get a move on this idea of home based recording!!!

Unfortunately my impatience is not a virtue. So I once again applaud you all with your input, it is very much appreciated. Now off to see if I can get this stuff rollin'...


Kyle.

 

[mikeh]

Bungle,

I too came from old school (I'm 53 so you can imagine the limited technology I started with - my first recording sessions were a whole band around one mic, recording to mono reel to reel).

Like many I started my home recording journey with a 4 track casette and each few years I upgreaded as technology became avaiable. I went from the 4 track cassette to an 8 track 1/4" reel to reel then to ADAT and then to hard drive recording. I'm on my 3rd computer sytem and now have 250 gigs for my ops sytem and 250 gigs for project storage, duel monitors, 16 channels of A/D D/A etc. etc.

Each step was a significant improvement in sound quality and the editing/processing options available. However, each step also involved a significant learning curve. There were many times I spent more time with my nose in an instuction book rather than having my hands on an instrument. However, the growing pains were worth the end result.

You can use a computer as a glorified tape deck - you don't have to do all the processing inside the machine - however, it can make thing much easier once you learn how.

The keys to recording to a computer are:

1) Get the best front end gear you can afford. The best A/D D/A converters (the M-Aduio stuff is very decent for the price), the best mic and the best mic pre.

2) Start with simple applications with the software. Just use it as a multi track recorder at first. You can always learn the more advance processing/editing/MIDI applications later. It is better to use the computer at it's most basic (and actually record stuff) than to not use it because it's to complicated

3) Get the best monitoing you can afford - so you can make accurate sound decisions.

Also, I'll make one other suggestion - try to find someone who understands your specific software application - (in your case that would appear to be Sonar) and offer to pay them for a couple hours to show you around the software - take detailed notes. Having a technical consultant is worth every dime I spend (he charges my $60 per hour - but I can learn more in an hour or two than I could with hours of stumbling around).

Lastly, be willing to experiment - remember most things can be corrected by simple use of the "undo" command and a reboot can always get you back to where you started (oh yeah - remember to save your work often!!!!!).

 

[Mr Bungle]

Ahhh, so I will need a mic-pre. The guy at the music store led me to believe put the mic on the amp,run it through the Edirol A/D D/A straight to computer.

I have to appologise I have yet to get the "time" to try everyones great tips with other non-audio duties, but I am certainly reading alot!!

This weekend I will be in high gear again!



Kyle.

 

[Farview]

This will help you along.
http://www.tweakheadz.com/guide.htm

 

[Strryder]

Ahhh, so I will need a mic-pre. The guy at the music store led me to believe put the mic on the amp,run it through the Edirol A/D D/A straight to computer.

I have to appologise I have yet to get the "time" to try everyones great tips with other non-audio duties, but I am certainly reading alot!!

This weekend I will be in high gear again!



Kyle.

The Edirol UA25 has two multi purpose inputs on the front, they are certainly mic preamps, (3 pin lo-Z), and will also accept 1/4" plugs, I can't tell by the pictures if the 1/4" are line or intrument level inputs, but they may be able to do both.

 

[Mr Bungle]

Ok good, thought the Edirol did the trick,..guess I'm being over cautious I suppose

Farview,thanks for the link ...more reading for me!!!!

 

[mikeh]

One word of caution (of at least something to clerify) regarding the Edirol input. Are you using a dynamic mic or a condensor? The Edirol may indeed be multi purpose and will accept 1/4" or cannon plug (3 pin) but it may or may not provide phantom power. If you are using a consensor (which most people prefer for most recording applications) you will need phantom power.

These days it is indeed likely that the A/D converters do provide phantom (but I would never take it for granted). It should be very easy to confirm by either reading the box/paperwork or looking on the unit for a phantom power switch.

Also, while an A/D converter may serve as a pre-amp as a general rule it will not be a "good" pre-amp. Thus the front end of the system will not be optimized.

I've never used an Edirol, so I can not offer fact or opinion on its ability as a pre-amp.

 

[Mr Bungle]

Well, I have a good ole SM57(haha) but I am going to get a good condenser tonight...maybe 2..... Any suggestions without breaking the bank?

Hell, maybe i should buy a nice little mixer board as well...


Kyle.
Sponsored by Visa and Mastercard.

 

[tnjazz]

The UA-25 supplies 48V phantom power on the XLR inputs (I think the switch is on the back?), so you should be good to go with any condenser.

The SM57 is a dynamic and does not need phantom. It can't be hurt by it either though.

 

[mikeh]

If you're looking for advice on mics - you should go to the mic discussion threads on this site.

There are simply too many low costs mics to even start a discussion here. The Audio Technica AT series have some good mics, the AT4050 seems to get good reviews (I have an AT4047 that I like a lot), Shure has the KSM series, the KSM27 is used alot (I have the KSM32 which I'm very satisfied with), Rode makes good mics, etc. etc.

 

[Dani Pace]

The guy at the store was partialy right, you can plug a line from an amp (guitar, bass, PA etc...) into your mixer and get a fairly decent signal. Always use the line out or monitor out, never use the speaker out unless you want to fry something. The line out from a PA system will work fairly well as a mic pre if you don't have anything else. For certain effects you can even use a mic through a guitar amp then line out to the line in. A good mic pre amp will allow you to have more versitility in your micing applications.

When I first got into comp recording I was greatly misled by a salesperson, I knew very little about computers and nothing about digital recording. Like a dummy I went home with Cakewalk Music Creator and a Soundblaster thinking I had all I needed to get into home recording. I've learned (the hard way) that it takes quite a bit more to get any decent recordings, and not to listen to salespeople. My set up is still pretty humble compared to some but I have upgraded everything at least twice since I started on this venture and am finally getting the hang of how to use the meager gear that i do have to get a few fairly decent sounding recordings.

 

[TelePaul]

Dani has it exactly right! I bought the rudimentaries I have and proceeded to cry myself to sleep EVERY night for a week! It really is tough to get everything started, but man, once you do...you'll be blown away with what you can do. I get such a kick out of home recording, you learn new tricks and techniques every day and you'll amaze yourself with what you can get down to CD after a few weeks. Also, you'll probably find that this forum is the most useful resource ever, because theres people here that know so much and are willing to share it all. Best of luck with ti and let us know how you get on.