They Let Me Out Of My Cage Early Today

  • Thread starter Thread starter drstawl
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In the interest of being a mid-east peace broker, I have to agree that Sabbath and WATYF have a point. I don't know anything about people being arrogant, but you are correct that none of us should be taking ourselves too seriously.
 
The whole thing kind of reminds me of the Wizard of Oz, you know the whole "Don't you dare ask to look behind the curtain to see the wizard!" I was raised in a family of painters and I've seen up close many times the "if you don't understand it, it must be because you can't comprehend the genius behind it", but that was always used on the public, not fellow artists.

One of the best things about the clinic is that you don't rest on your laurels, you have to expect every new composition to be challenged and that's a good thing. Not to mention there is always a new influx of ears on the board and someone is bound to be having their first listening experience of your style with your most recent submission.

I think everyone has asked Drstawl to be more forthcoming as to what makes the piece exceptional or what there is to "get". To this point I have seen him offer "it sounded good to me" and that is fair enough, but if that is the case then a listener could proclaim "it didn't sound good to me" and have just as valid a response.

In addition I'd like to have a better description of what dobro is getting from the piece. I'm aware that the piece is strange but I'd like to hear a fuller description of why you think that strangeness is good. Are you perceiving something that you are not sharing with us?



Lastly i'd like to offer that in my own experiences a lot of caution has to be used when drifting into atonal. When i'm listening to something I've tracked that is out-there after enough listens it starts to become "familiar" to me. I can get used to almost any note combination especially after many listens, but what happens is that when I offer this up to a listener it's like a splash of cold water on them, they haven't had time to acclimate to the pool.
 
LOL I'm not the Committe for a More Tolerant Clinic any more. That didn't work, obviously. I think I'll work for A More Entertaining Clinic instead.

My first comment's to drstawl: hey, your stuff is really stirring some people up. Tell you what, though. When I put the Original Sin album together, one of the things I had in mind was to make the music accessible enough so that even people like my mom and dad could listen to the tunes and get something out of them. Well, I sent the CD off to my mom and dad, and guess what? - the embarrassed silence was the most telling comment on how they viewed it. There are some people here in the clinic who like some of the music on that album, and there are some other people who like some of the music on that album, but my own family don't like it, even though I tried to create something they'd be able to listen to. Why am I telling you this? For two reasons: first, there are always gonna be people who don't like your music. Second, why try to dumb it down so that they can access it more easily? Fuck 'em.

Okay, on to the entertainment. B Sabbath first. Shall I call you Mr Sabbath, or are we on a first name basis, Black? Or maybe BS for short. I like your recordings, but I don't like your attitude in this thread. Why is that? Well, basically because you say things like this:

"bullshit.. drstawl has never held back on his thoughts so why should anyone else? The reason I said he is arrogant is because he is.. In his mind, if you don't get his music it is a problem with the listener or your closed minded or something like that.. All of it equals nonsense to me.. I like to treat others how they treat others.. I like his songs, but he tends to stretch the importance of them.. I do think he is full of himself... I see it all the time in his posts.."

Maybe what you see in his posts is your own attitude. It happens all the time. It's called projection, and has been noticed and commented on by Sufi observers a thousand years ago all the way to western psychiatrists in the twentieth century. People tend to see in others what they aren't honest enough to see in themselves.

Okay, you think he's arrogant and you felt the need to post that opinion in the clinic. So, show me where in this thread he was arrogant or 'stretching the importance of his songs'. Show me where he compared his stuff to Beethoven. I've read this thread a few times, and the only place I can think of where someone might think he was being arrogant was a point near the beginning where he made a tongue in cheek comment. Maybe you didn't get it? Anyway, I'm making various comments on your posts in this thread, but what I want from you is some evidence: where in this thread was the man being arrogant? I mean, I quote what *you* said in order to substantiate my points, so let's see you quote him.

Here, look, I'll show you how to do it. I'll quote you again. You say to him: "I always enjoy listening to your little novelty tunes."

To my mind, 'your little novelty tunes' is really demeaning. Arrogant even. Who the fuck are you to describe someone's stuff as 'little novelty tunes'? Little novelty tunes, a dog's ass. So, what do you write? Big important works of musical art? Is that what you're suggesting? So how good is your stuff? It's good, right? And you take it seriously, right? You wouldn't have got it to the stage where it is now if you *hadn't* taken it seriously, if you *hadn't* believed in yourself. So where do you get off running someone down for taking their own music seriously? I like your recordings, but I don't like your attitude in this thread. Oh, wait a minute, I said that already. Time to move on.


WISC:

"I often let my 5 year old play with Fruity loops.I build a drumkit with some funky sounds and let him plot the the notes on the said graph.It turns out much the same as this song."

Gee, I'd like to hear it. Post it, okay? Put your 5 year old on the line. I'd like to hear your kid's music, so we can compare it to the tune in this thread. Will you do that? Or will you just forget it or come up with a change of topic or something?

WATYF

"As I said before... I don't see how you can make some kind sweeping generalization about this and say that if you don't think this is "great art" that you're either ignorant or intolerant. That's just silly."

WATYF, you're just inaccurate. You're way off point. Here's why: I didn't say it was great art. I said that if you say it was bad art or if you attack his personality, you're demonstrating your ignorance and intolerance. Did you even read my post? Tsk, how are we gonna converse if you don't even pay attention?

"but don't tell me that if I don't see the "greatness" of this song it's solely because I'm ignorant...."

No, I didn't say that. Are you catching on yet? But I find it interesting that when I talk about negative criticism and personal attacks in the clinic that you choose to respond personally. Got a bad conscience?

Hey, did you sign up for Sluice's 'pair' challenge? I hope I get you! If I do, I'm gonna phone you so we can work out who does what. I bet you get to play drums. Or maybe I'll do everything and you'll just criticize it in the clinic. Badly.

Hey, Sluice, do you take bribes? I want WATYF. Including the avatar.


So, y'all entertained yet? I know I am. Plus I have the pleasure of knowing I get to respond later on. So many easy targets, so little time...

In the meantime, can we please have a more tolerant clinic? Cuz when things get intolerant I feel the need to jump down people's throats like cheap wine. Maybe I take my cue from others...
 
"In addition I'd like to have a better description of what dobro is getting from the piece. I'm aware that the piece is strange but I'd like to hear a fuller description of why you think that strangeness is good. Are you perceiving something that you are not sharing with us?"

Aw, jesus... I like his music because I like it, okay? I've listened to a variety of his stuff over a four-year span and I think it's great. I know some of its limitations and I'm not bothered by them. He's played on one of my albums, and the tune he played on is by far the most popular tune on the whole album.

You want proof? Send me ten dollars and I'll send you a copy of the CD.

How bad do you wanna know? :D
 
dude..... ....you do like to write dont you.....

..I need a nap
 
Yeah, it *was* kinda long, wasn't it? I reminded myself of Sonusman when I was writing it.

Never mind. Take your nap. It'll get read by people who are interested.
 
To quote the great Rodney King, "Why can't we all just get along?"
 
flat-9 wrote:

This "mumbo jumbo" that you refer to is elementary to the vocabulary of a musician and is applicable to the analysis of all styles & genres of music, inclusive of 21st century contemporary expressionism.
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Applicable too all styles yes; required by every composition, no. The tempered scale is a fictional creation. Music is just air vibrating, and sound doesn't know what 440 is nor anything about key signatures. That not to say that I rock out to everything I hear in the ambiant air, but sometimes I can enjoy something that doesn't follow the standard guildelines. And sometimes I'm in the mood for Liszt. Or maybe a harmless pop tune. Music is just noise, and all those "rules" are just tools, not the music.
 
A road map for peace in the atonal east....

......doesn't really mean anything....I just wanted to write it. :D

Look.............I'm gonna hope that everyone read where I voiced my support for this kind of music and the idea that you need the proper reference points to get it. I'm not anti-atonal or drstawl at all......and although I said this wasn't my favorite of his.....I did like it and defended it as art.

Art is whatever the artist says it is.....period. Now whether it's 'good' or 'bad' art is the decision of the listener.......so like a sub-atomic particle that doesn't have a determined 'spin' until it is looked at.....art can be both. It can be good and bad at the same time since different listeners can percieve it as either.
And, as I have said.... I reject the idea of absolutes in music.

Having said that, I didn't see much personal attack on drstawl in this thread.
Sam objected to Dr getting irritated 'cause several people made comments concerning the 'weirdness' of the piece and Sam has a point............ sorry, but by conventional standards; it is weird........and spare me the response that I just don't get it. I do get it and I like stuff like this.
Captain Beefhart and SunRa are weird to most people and I like both quite a bit. Yes, it was a little insulting to refer to his tunes as "little novelty tunes" but it was in response to the DR getting a little overly bummed because not everyone got it.

Sorry Doc.....but this can't be the first time that you've had people not like or not understand your music. It comes with the territory and as I said earlier, it's a price you pay by being true to your vision of what your music should be.

And flat9, I've certainly come to respect your views and you've quickly become a skilled and valuable addition to the board......and you even look a lot like me. :D I bet we'd have a ball if we got together and where you from anyway? I travel some and I'd love to look you up if I'm ever around your area.....
I DID NOT FIND YOUR POST TO BE MEAN SPIRITED OR CONDESCENDING IN ANY WAY.........I don't think there was any reason for the Doc to be insulted by your post as I found it to be light-hearted and playful just as you said.......but your teaching credentials don't make you the arbiter of what is or isn't music and the mere fact that you have them simply means that you have a great deal of knowledge about music........but that, in and of itself, is not the same as making your views, or even those of the musical academic world absolutes. No way to resolve this 'cause eveyone can have an opinion....but I personally DON'T BELIEVE IN MUSICAL ABSOLUTES.

And Doc.......man.....if you're gonna put out avant-garde stuff, you're gonna have to develop a slightly thicker skin. I guaruntee you that when I put a song up here....the negative comments run off of me like nothing. I don't care.....I put stuff up just to share, and while I'm interested in what others think, and might even make changes based on that, I simply don't really give a crap about the negative comments....doesn't matter to me....and it shouldn't matter so much to you.

And I do think it's a valid point that, at least a little, you should spend some small amount of time explaining why you play like you do and the concepts involved in your music.
It's not fair to decrie people's lack of understanding of your music without trying to help them to see what you feel they are missing.

Now, everybody kiss and make up and let's stop nuking the Doc's thread.
 
I beg to differ. Music is not just air vibrating, its the result of some deliberate configuration of vibrating air. I say the word deliberate deliberately.
 
I beg to differ. Music is not just air vibrating, its the result of some deliberate configuration of vibrating air. I say the word deliberate deliberately.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's a better way to phrase it.
 
dobro said:
Okay, on to the entertainment. B Sabbath first.
Maybe what you see in his posts is your own attitude. It happens all the time. It's called projection, and has been noticed and commented on by Sufi observers a thousand years ago all the way to western psychiatrists in the twentieth century. People tend to see in others what they aren't honest enough to see in themselves.
Click to expand...



hmmmm.. interesting point.. maybe I am very arrogant.. Your the first person in the clinic to imply this, unless people have been sparing my feelings?



dobro said:
Okay, you think he's arrogant and you felt the need to post that opinion in the clinic. So, show me where in this thread he was arrogant or 'stretching the importance of his songs'. Show me where he compared his stuff to Beethoven. I've read this thread a few times, and the only place I can think of where someone might think he was being arrogant was a point near the beginning where he made a tongue in cheek comment. Maybe you didn't get it? Anyway, I'm making various comments on your posts in this thread, but what I want from you is some evidence: where in this thread was the man being arrogant? I mean, I quote what *you* said in order to substantiate my points, so let's see you quote him.Here, look,
Click to expand...


First off, I didn't come to my conclusions from this thread.. It's been building up for a while.. Just do a search on his posts and see for yourself.. I have already read enough.. drstawl seems like someone who believes his poop don't stink.. If you don't see it, maybe you should change your name from dobro to dumbo.. :)




dobro [/i][B] Here said:
My first comment's to drstawl: hey, your stuff is really stirring some people up. Tell you what, though. When I put the Original Sin album together, one of the things I had in mind was to make the music accessible enough so that even people like my mom and dad could listen to the tunes and get something out of them. Well, I sent the CD off to my mom and dad, and guess what? - the embarrassed silence was the most telling comment on how they viewed it. There are some people here in the clinic who like some of the music on that album, and there are some other people who like some of the music on that album, but my own family don't like it, even though I tried to create something they'd be able to listen to. Why am I telling you this? For two reasons: first, there are always gonna be people who don't like your music. Second, why try to dumb it down so that they can access it more easily? Fuck 'em.
Click to expand...


This is perhaps the funniest comment yet.. It's not the music that's 'stirring people up,' it's the comments..
"Second, why try to dumb it down so that they can access it more easily? Fuck 'em"

Dumb it down? How about smartening it up..


In closing, drstawl is full of himself.. I know it, you know it.. However you want to twist it is fine though.. It's always noble looking going for the underdog..



B :)



BTW - great post Lt.! I wish I had a better way with words..
 
Interesting stuff. I liked the last note the best. Not meant as sarcasm. It made me giggle :D.

I thought I caught almost some oriental type scales in there...interesting...but then again...no.

Certainly was an interesting listen.
 
Jagular said:
Interesting stuff. I liked the last note the best. Not meant as sarcasm. It made me giggle :D.

I thought I caught almost some oriental type scales in there...interesting...but then again...no.

Certainly was an interesting listen.
Click to expand...

P.S. I didn't bother to read the 4 pages of comments because it looked like it was taking off in a wierd direction :D

Ooops...I meant to edit not quote...oh well...+1 :D
 
Damn you guys are really MIXING it up here in the clinic, huh?

I don't always (or maybe not even most of the time) aggree with the Doc's oppinions, attitudes, or musical arangements, but come on guys!

Anyone here ever give a listen to Coletrane's Interstellar Space? I've grown up with music, and feel like I've got quite a breadth of exposure to different genres, but I still can't hack that shit. Maybe it just sucks, maybe I don't get it, maybe I never will. I feel like I can really hear and feel most everything he did, and can listen to it over and over without tiring, but I still just can't dig that arythmic amelodic stuff. I still think that Trane is a genius (and don't get me wrong I'm not trying to compare Doc to Trane in any way- just a reference to abstract music). One other thing that I really dig about Trane, is that you could gleen points of reference about what was going on in his head at different points of his life, by listening to him through his music in different times (which is obviously a different thing musically than listening to lyrics/verbalization).

All that said, the main thing that I like about Doc's music, is that it IS SOOO DOC STAWL! I mean that in the best possible way. I think that reading Doc's posts (however you feel about them), gives you a different perspective on his music. Conversly, listening to Doc's music, gives you a different point of reference on his posts.

Think of this, when you listen to Cobain, can't you almost smell the Chiba smoke and depression (even if you didn't speak english)? When you listen to some really hardcore gangster rap, or metal, can't you feel the anger? When you listen to Doc's stuff, I really think you can introspect the chaotic synaptic playground that is his brain, weather it's in your language of musical origin, or not.

My $0.02

Why can't we all just get a bong? <(c;
 
B.SABBATH said:
I like his songs, but he tends to stretch the importance of them..
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Exactly how do you feel I "stretch the importance" of my work?

Is it my belief that despite the weirdness evident in my .mp3s they are just as valid as a piece of musical expression as anything recorded by anyone else here in any genre?

I don't have to stretch anything to get there.

I'm not John Coltrane. I'm not J.S. Bach. I'm not Frank Zappa. Good thing- 'cause they are all fucking DEAD and gone!
 
drstawl said:


Is it my belief that despite the weirdness evident in my .mp3s they are just as valid as a piece of musical expression as anything recorded by anyone else here in any genre?
Click to expand...


no I don't agree.....


my stuff sucks pretty bad........
and I know it....that's why I keep trying to improve and appreciate ALL comments that are made by folks that bother to take the time to listen and reply here in the clinic....................
regardless of whether it is about the musical composition or the lyric...or the arrangement....


I appreciate the scathing declarations of my suckiness just as much as the kudos on the off chance that I get eight bars in time with good harmony.........................ya know?


Peace,
Joe
 
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