They Let Me Out Of My Cage Early Today

  • Thread starter Thread starter drstawl
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drstawl said:
If it seems like I'm too serious about my "works" it's only because I'm bummed seeing them abused by irrelevant analyses. Like hearing a criticism of an SM-57 where the reviewer was upset that it didn't perform well as a paint stir stick.
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That's an understandable feeling.........but if you're gonna be 'cutting edge'.....then it's inevitable that people who hear it are gonna use the only reference point they have; which is the 'non-cutting edge' stuff they already listen to. Really , how can they do anything else. It's not an irrelevant analysis.....it's the only analysis they can give. I don't think you mean that only people who like or understand it are qualified to analyze it or comment on their reactions to it, do you?

I thought the comments on this thread were fairly open-minded about it. Only a couple just came right out and said they didn't like it........most of the others recognized that there was something here, all right.....but they just didn't understand it. Nothing wrong with that........me, I like this sort of stuff but I didn't feel this had as much........ emotion-conjuring, imagery-provoking, sonic-tapestry quality as some of your other stuff I've heard.

I'm not trying to argue your point 'cause I totally understand the frustration you might feel if it seems that some people don't understand what you're doing......but as I said, if you're gonna do this kind of music, you're gonna get some of these responses. It's the price you have to pay for being true to your artistic vision.

Man........I respect nothing more than an artist who has a definite vision and won't be compromised by outside input.......but be fair, this kind of music is a heavy load to drop on people in a society that has listened to 4/4 major/minor chord music since it was in the womb. ;)
 
Lt. Bob found a nicer way to say it...

Good one, Lt. Bob.
 
drstawl said:
If it seems like I'm too serious about my "works" it's only because I'm bummed seeing them abused by irrelevant analyses.
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lol... :D "irrelevant"...


...funny how it's not the music that's irrelevant... it's just the people who didn't like it.


:rolleyes:


:p


I agree with Sam (that's B.SABBATH for all you newbies. :p)... although... honestly, I listened to it and didn't find it nearly as "weird" as all the comments suggested it was going to be. I didn't think it was necessarily "bad" at all. And I also agree that it would sound very "appropriate" if played over a scene of busy bustling traffic/people or something like that.


But sure,... I could sit and listen to it over and over just to "broaden my horizons" and blah blah blah... but really... what's the point? Should I fart into a microphone and play that over and over until I see the "art" in it? Should I record myself dropping a cat out of a 10th story window and listen to that over and over again just to hear the "beauty" in the way it hits the pavement? :D Sorry... I don't go for the whole "being different just for the sake of being different, so you can say you're sophisticated" thing. "Different" alone doesn't necessarily require any talent or creativity.... (Different and Beautiful is a whole 'nuther story. :p) Which is why I just don't take stuff like this too seriously...



...sorry for being so "irrelevant". :D


WATYF
 
Lt. Bob said:
it's inevitable that people who hear it are gonna use the only reference point they have; which is the 'non-cutting edge' stuff they already listen to. Really , how can they do anything else. It's not an irrelevant analysis.....it's the only analysis they can give ......most of the [people] recognized that there was something here, all right.....but they just didn't understand it.
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Oh no... I definitely understood it. I just didn't like it, or think it had much real "worth" musically.


I mean really... you gotta watch it when you get into that type of mindset... how arrogant is that...? to say that if someone doesn't like your music, it has to be because they don't "understand" it... It can't possibly be because it's just not very good. :p


That's the surest way to self-delusion.


WATYF
 
Well........I did say, "Most of the people." :D
You're right, of course, not liking something is not the same as not understanding it.........but there is a lot of music I like now that I used to not like..."SUN RA" is a good example. And now that I like it, the only explanation I can come up with for why I used to not like it; is that I didn't fully "get it" like I do now. To me, "not getting it" is a form of not understanding.
BUT....you are absolutely right.....it is completely possible to understand something and not like it. I kind of reject the idea of absolutes in music though........music is an entirely made up, man defined thing........and if the only music you had ever heard for your whole life was this......then the stuff you like now would sound alien and weird.

This reminds me of a gig I was at. A local thing had been that whenever someone would play something really weird, we'd all look at each other and someone would grin and say "JAZZ!" as if that explained it.
One night, right after the usual remark of "JAZZ", I piped up with, "BAD JAZZ!" :D






Guess you had to be there. :)




And drstawl......I'm not saying yous is bad.....this just brought that story to mind.
 
The plain old, "I don't like it" is fair enough for me. When that reaction gets buried in a bunch of mumbo jumbo about "tonal center" and "harmonic continuity", no. It can't be fairly compared with typical music in most genres.

What sort of critique would I like? Some of it I got! Places where the encode or the recording messed up some instruments.

>It's not an irrelevant analysis.....it's the only analysis they can give

Sometimes all of one's tools are inappropriate to the job at hand.
What should one do? Build new tools!

The man in the coonskin cap wants eleven dollar bills- you only got ten.

>Mixing tips? Mic placement tips?

Well- this is a two channel synth creation mixed at the MIDI level if you have any suggestions for the mix. No mics were used as paint stir sticks in the creation of these tunes.
 
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Lt. Bob said:
This reminds me of a gig I was at. A local thing had been that whenever someone would play something really weird, we'd all look at each other and someone would grin and say "JAZZ!" as if that explained it.
One night, right after the usual remark of "JAZZ", I piped up with, "BAD JAZZ!" :D
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LOL... :D I'm sure I would have been in agreement with you aboot that. :p

But I don't really agree aboat the "no absolutes in music" thing. Sure.. you can do anything... it is literally "anything goes" when it comes to making a composition. But there is a definable "substance" to music with gives it its "value" (or lack thereof :p). And as much as "arteeests" don't want to admit it, there is such a thing as bad music...



or, as you would say, "bad jazz".




:D


lol... that's a pretty good one actually... I'll have to use that in the future. :)



WATYF
 
We have to be careful here because its very different to make a statement like "I don't like Opera" and a statement like "I heard Tosca and its a load of bullocks" (for our friends over the pond). Generally, I don't like opera, and for this reason I balk at saying any particular opera is no good. To say "I know what I like and I don't like this" may be true but it denies the fact that you may not have a real context in which to analyze it.
 
Definable "substance"...substance written between quotes....having trouble defining it WATYF? LOL :D

I wonder how turkish or chinese classical music (the music I grew up with, "but you're from holland?", ok, long story can't explain right now;) ) sounds in your 'american' ears (it's in no way 'bad music', but I doubt whether you can point out why it's not bad!

I always thought the Rolling Stones and Bob Dylan sounded weird, hahaha :D

Lt. Bob said it...it's all about reference points (if that's a word in english :) )...the more types of music you hear the less weird (or bad) other things sound. And the easier it gets to notice whether something's really bad or just plain weird...
 
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I have to weigh in again.

Is this some sort of sonic riddle? Did you spell out "Johan Sebastian Bach" in your key signatures? When you zoom out on the piano roll does it look like a picture of Bart Simpson? Did you daisy chain atonal and tonal phrases together in one big string of popcorn?

I could believe that dr meticulously planned every note in this but I could also imagine him just sitting down and improvising it, but either way for me to understand what he's trying to convey becomes an academic excercise at best. Rhythmically the piece hangs in there but the key signature often drifts into the key of "ass". If you've set out to be a clever wag and stir up debate, i can see that's how you'd win with this piece but be careful....


"Don't set out to raze all shrines — you'll frighten men. Enshrine mediocrity — and the shrines are razed . . . Kill by laughter. Laughter is an instrument of human joy. Learn to use it as a weapon of destruction. Turn it into a sneer. It's simple. Tell them to laugh at virtue. Don't let anything remain sacred in a man's soul — and his soul won't be sacred to him. Kill reverence and you've killed the hero in man"
~Ellsworth Toohey~


"There are plenty of good pieces waiting to be written in C major."
~Arnold Schoenberg~
 
Khompewtur said:
I have to weigh in again.

Is this some sort of sonic riddle? Did you spell out "Johan Sebastian Bach" in your key signatures? When you zoom out on the piano roll does it look like a picture of Bart Simpson? Did you daisy chain atonal and tonal phrases together in one big string of popcorn?

I could believe that dr meticulously planned every note in this but I could also imagine him just sitting down and improvising it, but either way for me to understand what he's trying to convey becomes an academic excercise at best. Rhythmically the piece hangs in there but the key signature often drifts into the key of "ass". If you've set out to be a clever wag and stir up debate, i can see that's how you'd win with this piece but be careful....

"There are plenty of good pieces waiting to be written in C major."
~Arnold Schoenberg~
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Had I done that I would have spelled Johann with two "n"s.
The work is a combination of sequenced and "played" parts, followed by further direct MIDI editing. So, while I didn't plan every note, I planned the skeletal structure and some of the basic lines, then poured a cold beer all over the keyboard, had my cat lick it up while recording the MIDI output...... wait a second- just kidding. Even the stuff that is not directly written is reviewed note for note, generally two or three channels at a time, then all at once, correcting the MIDI parameters for each event until it is done.
I've only set out to be me and write music I like.
No wagging involved.
 
drstawl said:
The plain old, "I don't like it" is fair enough for me. When that reaction gets buried in a bunch of mumbo jumbo about "tonal center" and "harmonic continuity", no. It can't be fairly compared with typical music in most genres.


MUMBO JUMBO?

Please sir,

Don't insult me!

This "mumbo jumbo" that you refer to is elementary to the vocabulary of a musician and is applicable to the analysis of all styles & genres of music, inclusive of 21st century contemporary expressionism.

I am reposting my initial response below, which I consider to be quite nuetral, lighthearted, sincere and inquisitive.

It was not meant to provoke, bash or otherwise undermine the composer's intention yet I truly sense that it was mis-interpreted this way after reading the entire thread this evening.

I take great pride in being a full time instructor of piano, theory & composition and orchestration here in Massachusetts, and have grown quite fond of this forum as one of my pastimes. My posts & critiques are well thought out, considerate, articulate and are appreciated by most other members of this forum. ...er....well, just a couple of flames.

If you would prefer feedback like ' This is fucking great', or 'this smells like ass' as opposed to a post with some substance, (aka mumbo jumbo) simply indicate it in a response.

BTW: my undergrad degree was in composition, focusing on 20th
century techniques under the direction of Dr. Paul Earls, Harvard University. ( I'm pretty open-minded and love all genres. )

flat-9's origonal post follows.

HMMMmmmmmm,

And to think 'JacKerouac HRC' was a stretch to far to the 'left' for this board.......hmmmmmm.

I'm gonna have to listen to this a few more times to check for a tonal center......melodic developement........harmonic continuity.............emotional content........hold on... NOPE!

Other than the rhythmic imitation and developement which was assumingly inadvertant.......none of the above is apparent after 10 listens.

PLEASE CLUE ME IN!!! GIVE ME AN INKLING AS TO COMPOSITIONAL CONCEPTION & OBJECTIVE or if you were attempting "serialism", or simply letting loose with some freestyle after being released from the cage.

peace
Ralph
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A more global comment: drstawl has in the past posted a number of his compositions here in the clinic, almost all of which are in the same 'quadrant' as the one he posted in this thread. In the past, the response to his stuff has ranged from 'I don't get it, but rock on, man!' to 'what a blast! rock on, man!'.

In this thread, he's come in for a lot of slagging off from a number of people. Both his music and his personality have been demeaned by different people.

It's obvious that the clinic's changing in a lot of ways. The change that I see in this thread is that there's a stronger element of judgemental criticism, and less of that old attitude of 'let it be'. It doesn't make the clinic a better place.

I've listened to more of his music than anybody in this thread, other than drstawl himself, of course. It's wonderful music, and has more going for it in terms of originality than most of the stuff that gets posted here. It's intensely musical, and a breath of fresh air. It moves me.

So if you don't like it, say "I don't like it." If you don't get it, say "I don't get it." But don't say it's bad art, and don't attack his personality, because if you do that, you're demonstrating both your ignorance and your intolerance.

But if that's what you want to do - if you really want to demonstrate your ignorance and intolerance - well, hey, go ahead! Feel free!

Committee for a More Tolerant Clinic
 
Ya know, I really agree with you on some of your points. I agree that tolerance should be extended as a community courtesy to Anyone that make steps through these halls. In the most basic description that is universally accepted by society at large in the realm of music theory, is the precept that ".. music is a series of sounds occuring in a particular order to evoke a response from the listener." If that happens, it`s music. The response that is evoked may, or may not be what the performer intended, but if its a genuine sincere response, guess what? it`s valid!

I happen to like some the stuff the Doc has done. Some of it is similar to some things I`ve done in the past programming Arp`s, Moog`s, and others. Some of the stuff I have done couldnt be heard by humans, only cats and dogs reacted to it. Chaining multiple oscillators to arppegiators and changing clock timings, random sweeps with filters over an oscillator, combining wave forms and recombining the results. Tons of stuff... that I never declared as music. Usually it was for fun or devious reasons. However if I had called it music, I would probably at some point recieve an occasional "what's your point?" or "where are you headed with this?" or "I dont find any principles that I`m familiar with being evident in this presentation." Quite possibly I would have heard "damn that sux!" and I have had folks to say "why you want to make the synths do all that shit for, its weird man?" or "Turn that shit off!". There`s no doubt that Doc is aware of possible reactions to his presentations. I would think he takes it with a grain of salt in most cases.
However, there are the cases where some folks just react and reply without thought as to how it might be received by the author or performer. Sometimes these replies can sharp and wound inflicting.

There are cases where responses to posts of others may stimulate a desire to defend or retalliate and the ensuing replies may become injurious as well. Nothing gained.. only post pissing and lines drawing in the sand.

If folks just dont get Doc`s thing, and if he desires them to, he needs to point out his desire and objectives and methodology. If he doesn't care, then he doesnt need to explain anything. If they ask what his point is, I believe he could be courteous in a reply of some sort.
If someone demeaned his intelligence or persona in a reply to one of his presentations, he either could let go, or ask them why they feel that way, not with post pissing, no lines drawn in the sand. Although posting a demeaning or shitty reply should absolutely not be done in the first place by anybody.

KB
 
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dobro said:
In this thread, he's come in for a lot of slagging off from a number of people. Both his music and his personality have been demeaned by different people.

It's obvious that the clinic's changing in a lot of ways. The change that I see in this thread is that there's a stronger element of judgemental criticism, and less of that old attitude of 'let it be'. It doesn't make the clinic a better place.
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bullshit.. drstawl has never held back on his thoughts so why should anyone else? The reason I said he is arrogant is because he is.. In his mind, if you don't get his music it is a problem with the listener or your closed minded or something like that.. All of it equals nonsense to me.. I like to treat others how they treat others.. I like his songs, but he tends to stretch the importance of them.. I do think he is full of himself... I see it all the time in his posts..

I'm all for tolerance, but let's keep it real..
 
I often let my 5 year old play with Fruity loops.I build a drumkit with some funky sounds and let him plot the the notes on the said graph.It turns out much the same as this song.Maybe with slightly less structure but still has that random/humanized sound.If your actually playing those notes ,yea that's cool.If your programming them,I have to wonder if it's a joke... that you pretend to take that song seriously.It's short and doesnt really seem to have had much thought put into it.Sonicly,it sounds good.Clear and crisp with no muddyness,even tho there's alot going on.If I was on acid or mushrooms I would have a blast with this.I think this is the first of your songs that I've heard (i may be wrong,I'm totally burnt)The form is a little too free for my taste and as I know this is a mixing clinic,to put up a song is to expose yourself to all opinions.I'de like to hear a more straitforward approach to songwriting from you.Your ideas would make a fun and funky tune that still would be avoiding mainstream music themes.All in all,it sounds slapped together.Maybe the smog is affecting your judgement...shazam!Shmoke and a pancake?
 
B.SABBATH said:
bullshit.. drstawl has never held back on his thoughts so why should anyone else? The reason I said he is arrogant is because he is.. In his mind, if you don't get his music it is a problem with the listener or your closed minded or something like that.. All of it equals nonsense to me.. I like to treat others how they treat others.. I like his songs, but he tends to stretch the importance of them.. I do think he is full of himself... I see it all the time in his posts..

I'm all for tolerance, but let's keep it real..
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we are soooo on the same page aboot this...

As I said before... I don't see how you can make some kind sweeping generalization about this and say that if you don't think this is "great art" that you're either ignorant or intolerant. That's just silly.

Now,... I'm not for making any kind of attack on doc personally... I don't really know much aboot him, and even if I did, I would never use that as "ammunition" for attacking his music.


but don't tell me that if I don't see the "greatness" of this song it's solely because I'm ignorant....


once again... attitudes like that are the surest way to artistic self-delusion... (as well as the aforementioned arrogance.)



WATYF
 
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