The Soundproofing Thread, aka No Noise Outside

[Chill]

What did you use to soundproof your studio/ practice space? How did you deal with the windows? How did you deal with basement ceilings/ floors of the main level? And, how stupidly loud can you be with little or no volume outside? What I'm thinking about here is cutting down on sound transmission to the outside rather than getting a better sound inside the room.

I recently bought a house with a basement and I'll soundproof it in the next few months. I'm thinking about mass loaded vinyl + drywall on the exterior wooden walls which are a couple feet high above the foundation, same on the other walls, and leave the ceiling alone for now, as there are many pipes, conduits, and ducts which would either have to be moved or built around. For the windows, I was thinking about extra 2x4 around them on the inside which would allow for a plywood plug with foam to stop the window from vibrating and using latches to hold the plug in place. Any thoughts on any of that?

 

[mshilarious]

Why don't you just test the room you have now? Set the volume at a given level inside the studio, and measure it outside. That will tell you were you are starting from.

Regarding your plans, I think the Achilles heel is the ceiling.

 

[Todzilla]

My soundproofing solution is to build a separate structure with its own HVAC system.

I did the basement thing, with resilient channels, 55 gallon drums of caulk, the whole she-bang. It worked fine as long as no one was in the house. When the baby was born and her nursery was directly over the drum booth, my priorities shifted a bit.

Now that I have my own cranking space, life is oh so good. When you factor in all the expense and hassle of retrofitting soundproofing to an existing space, you'll see I got out easy.

 

[cobradenim]

Wouldn't it be nice if the people who responded actually had replied with something regarding your initial post? "Build a seperate structure.." or "Test the room you have now.." Why don't these guys just read the goddamn post and reply with something that actually has to do with it. I understand that building a seperate structure is ideal but that wasn't the fucking question. The question was:

What did you use to soundproof your studio/ practice space? How did you deal with the windows? How did you deal with basement ceilings/ floors of the main level? And, how stupidly loud can you be with little or no volume outside? What I'm thinking about here is cutting down on sound transmission to the outside rather than getting a better sound inside the room.

This is interesting to me as well therefore I was looking forward to intelligent replies. Needles to say I was dissapointed.

 

[Dani Pace]

I use some portable sound baffles made of four inch thick styrofoam panels covered with carpet to block sound from windows. They are easy to make, fairly inexpensive, and surprisingly effective. You could use acoustic foam but that stuff is very expensive and carpet covered styrene is almost as effective (if it's thick enough.) Bass is the hardest sound to "keep inside" and will penetrate through any unsoundproofed wall or floor. The vibrations from bass seem to resonate through almost any structure and find their way out into the neighborhood. Its almost like the spaces inside the walls serve as a conduit for bass and turn the attic into a big bass reflex speaker system. Loads of insulation and a sound absorbant celing materal may be the only way to keep a lot of sound from escaping. If you have a garage door in your basement don't forget to treat it the same as you would a great big window. Also most regular doors are hollow and work just like resonators so you need to treat them accordingly.

 

[Rod Gervais]

This is interesting to me as well therefore I was looking forward to intelligent replies. Needles to say I was dissapointed.

Cobra,

Actually the poster asked a question - and the answers were good ones.

1st of all - each and every situation is different - what works in one place may not work in another.

So everything begins with - how much sound do you need to isolate.

Assume in basement "A" that with a reading of 100dB within the basement - an outside reading within 3 feet of the building was 60dB, and in basement "B" with the same interior volume the outside readings were 80dB.

Obviously what worked for the owner of "A" would not be adequate for the owner of "B".

So everything begins with what you need to accomplish.

Also - mshilarious' answer explained that the weak point of the posters concept was the ceiling, which is the truth.......... unless Chill is willing to go the distance - then spending money to isolate walls is probably not going to do him a whole lot of good.

There is more to this than just a quick - "do this and you're going be isolated" fix.

If it was that easy most of us professionals would be out of business.

Sincerely,

Rod

 

[cobradenim]

Cobra,

Actually the poster asked a question - and the answers were good ones.

1st of all - each and every situation is different - what works in one place may not work in another.

So everything begins with - how much sound do you need to isolate.

Assume in basement "A" that with a reading of 100dB within the basement - an outside reading within 3 feet of the building was 60dB, and in basement "B" with the same interior volume the outside readings were 80dB.

Obviously what worked for the owner of "A" would not be adequate for the owner of "B".

So everything begins with what you need to accomplish.

Also - mshilarious' answer explained that the weak point of the posters concept was the ceiling, which is the truth.......... unless Chill is willing to go the distance - then spending money to isolate walls is probably not going to do him a whole lot of good.

There is more to this than just a quick - "do this and you're going be isolated" fix.

If it was that easy most of us professionals would be out of business.

Sincerely,

Rod

Well, I guess you put me in my place Rod. I understand every situation is different. But the question was soundproofing an existing structure, not "what else could I do?"

I use some portable sound baffles made of four inch thick styrofoam panels covered with carpet to block sound from windows. They are easy to make, fairly inexpensive, and surprisingly effective. You could use acoustic foam but that stuff is very expensive and carpet covered styrene is almost as effective (if it's thick enough.) Bass is the hardest sound to "keep inside" and will penetrate through any unsoundproofed wall or floor. The vibrations from bass seem to resonate through almost any structure and find their way out into the neighborhood. Its almost like the spaces inside the walls serve as a conduit for bass and turn the attic into a big bass reflex speaker system. Loads of insulation and a sound absorbant celing materal may be the only way to keep a lot of sound from escaping. If you have a garage door in your basement don't forget to treat it the same as you would a great big window. Also most regular doors are hollow and work just like resonators so you need to treat them accordingly.

That was good advice. It was relevent to the question, even though yours was not. People on this forum are looking for advice, looking to share ideas and to help out one another. Maybe my post was a little rude, but I saw a question being asked and the answers had nothing to do with the question, including yours.
The starter of this thread was just looking for ideas and thought you all could help. I thought he had a good start with the plywood and foam plug for the windows. That works pretty well.

 

[Rod Gervais]

I thought he had a good start with the plywood and foam plug for the windows. That works pretty well.

Once again - everything depends on the situation.

Foam is actually a lousy isolation product - it has little or no mass - which is required for lower frequencies.........

So if this made a big difference in the case of Dani's room - that means the room was already very well isolated.

I can (and usually do) help anyone with their construction - but need to know something about it to begin.

However - if you feel I'm being obtuse - then I will directly answer the question posed.

Rod

 

[Rod Gervais]

What did you use to soundproof your studio/ practice space? How did you deal with the windows? How did you deal with basement ceilings/ floors of the main level? And, how stupidly loud can you be with little or no volume outside? What I'm thinking about here is cutting down on sound transmission to the outside rather than getting a better sound inside the room.

The 2 have no relation whatsoever - so we'll concentrate on soound isolation.

I recently bought a house with a basement and I'll soundproof it in the next few months. I'm thinking about mass loaded vinyl + drywall on the exterior wooden walls which are a couple feet high above the foundation, same on the other walls, and leave the ceiling alone for now, as there are many pipes, conduits, and ducts which would either have to be moved or built around.

I don't place a whole lot of value on mass loaded vinyl - for less of an investment you can install multiple sheet of drywall and acheive the same or better results.

Critical to you is going to be sealing each and every crack in the installation.

You don't tell us what kind of music you will be making inside this room - but do make a reference to "stupidly loud" above - so I will assume levels of 100dB or better in the space - with strong bass.

You also don't tell me how close the neighbors are - so I can use distance to help calculate sound deadening.

You should probably begin with a minimum of 2 layers of 5/8" drywall right tight against the exterior sheathing of your outside wall....... this will have to be installed with roughly a 1/4" gap all around - and sealed in place with an acoustic caulk.

You can then insulate the cavity with 4psf mineral wool, add RISC 1 clips and track assembly - and then install a minimum of 2 layers of 5/8" drywall on top of that.

Once again - caulk all edges to assure no air movement through the structure.

You now have a wall assembly that exceeds the TL value of the ceiling and structure at that point to the outside world - and you may (big word may) cut your TL through the building in 1/2 even if you ignore your ceiling

Understand that 1/2 is a 6dB reduction - so we aren't talking a lot here.

If you really want something efective you are going to have to build a room within a room - and deal with the ceiling as a part of that equation.

For the windows, I was thinking about extra 2x4 around them on the inside which would allow for a plywood plug with foam to stop the window from vibrating and using latches to hold the plug in place. Any thoughts on any of that?

I noted in the post above - but will repeat here, foam is a lousy sound isolator. If has so little mass that it is almost non existant.

Having less mass in your windows than you do your walls will tend to negate your isolation - the wall assembly is as good as it's weakest link.

I would reccomend that you make the equivilent of a solid core door for your window opening, you can use the same weatherstriping for the window "door" that you use for a standard studio door.

Sincerely,

Rod

 

[Dani Pace]

Guess I was fortunate in that I had a good room to start with, 13ft X 26 ft with 10 ft celings, multi layer walls filles with celulose and approx, 6 inches fo celulose above the celing, and only 2 small windows. As others have said foam is not a sound proofing product, it is a good insulation and does work as light weight weight portable baffles when covered (as in my case carpet on one side, tile on the other.) I mearly suggested it as a quick temporary partial remedy, I have since packed my windows (as tightly as i could) with fiberglass and covered them with 3/4 plywood which does the job much better. Sorry if my suggestion was misleading.

 

[Chill]

How well does mineral wool work as an isolator? For the ceiling, how effective would it be to install a layer of mass loaded vinyl and a layer of mineral wool between the joists and around the HVAC pipes?

 

[spiderman2812]

hmmmmmmmmm

what i did was i built a staggered 2x6 wall for all the walls double insulated them with owens corning acoustic thermal insulation and on the interior of the walls i applied something similar to mass loaded vinyl. This really seems to cut the transmission down amazingly. I've just started the inside layer of drywall and i've noticed the more drywall i get up the better it gets. I was working in there yesterday and even with all the places for noise to get through {doors, no cieling yet,nothing caulked} I had a radio on and when i shut the door i couldn't here it at all. So my advice is if you don't have all the fancy decibel meters and stuff and you're working on a budget , do some research and apply it to the best of your ability. It sounds like you already have a plan so good luck and keep us posted>

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

You have already been given the best advice available from an EXPERT in studio construction. If you try to outguess and experiment thats your business. But hindsight is 20/20. Should you ignor his suggestions, good luck. However, it is a NO BRAINER why studio designers and architects use TESTED assembly designs, as they can mostly predict the transmission loss from the outset. Here is why.
This is the largest test of partition wall designs ever conducted. If you can't see why here...well, maybe you can come up with a better design.
Notice that NONE of these designs utilize mass loaded vinyl. I wonder why.
http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/fulltext/ir693/ir693.pdf
fitZ

 

[Chill]

Yar, I've done some research, but I want to get a plan which is not doomed to failure from the outset (Lead on, MacDuff!). My cost est last night was about $1K for vinyl + 1 layer of rock on the walls and mineral wool on the ceiling...which means it will probably cost even more. I'll let you know how it works and/or post more questions as it progresses.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Let me add a couple of things here. One thing that is seldom mentioned here, is LOW FREQUENCY TRANSMISSION LOSS. When you design your isolation stategy, unless you have a Low frequency transmission loss TARGET in mind, you are plain guessing. And IF, you don't address this LF TL target in ALL the flanking paths, structural transmission paths, AND MASS AIR MASS RESONANCE in ALL the assemblies of the room, the transmission loss will be lowered to the WEAKEST LINK. In otherwords, IF you poured a FLOATED 6" concrete slab that addressed a target LF TL resonance of 10 hz, UNLESS your walls, doors, ceiling, and ALL leafs also addressed this SAME LF TL, you would waste your time and money. So even if you put 6 layers of drywall on the walls, if your floor was directly connected to the exterior structure, impact noise from drums would simply bypass your massive wall sheithing, to the exterior. This is why, IF you want HIGH DB PROFILE isolation, Rod suggested what he did. However, understanding all the details to accomplish this is the key to success. Here is what a guy in england did to isolate 110 db within his house. This is a studio building DIARY. It is 80 pages long
However, it details exactly what it takes to isolate 110 db at 10 hz. TRY a floating room on a concrete slab floating on sylomer isolators, with SEVEN LAYERS OF DRYWALL on walls and ceiling.
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=107
fitZ

 

[Chill]

Thanks for the links and the tips, FitZ (and thanks to you, Rod!). Looks like 5/8" rock is ~$.40/sf rather than the ~$1/sf for the vinyl. May be time to rethink that.

Re sealing the room: how is acoustic caulk different from ordinary caulk? And it sounds like the idea is to make sure there is no direct way for sound to leak through an airhole. True?

And back to mass on the ceiling: Is there any practical and effective way to add mass between the joists, to avoid the PITA of moving many pipes, conduits, and HVAC pipes?

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Re sealing the room: how is acoustic caulk different from ordinary caulk?

Pay attention to the LAST reply by Brian Dayton. His opinion is WORTH its weight in gold....er the difference in cost.
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=1566

And it sounds like the idea is to make sure there is no direct way for sound to leak through an airhole. True?

True. "Sound proof" is "air proof". A 1/16th inch hole might as well be 1/2". This means at EVERY SINGLE JOINT in the drywall, around the perimeter of OVERLAPED layer joints at the corners, and at the floor.(leave 1/4" gap between the drywall and subflooring. Caulk before installing finish flooring and base board. Caulk all gaps between door jambs and framing before applying trim. And actually, the sequence and location of caulking the drywall also depends on your ceiling decoupling details too.
In fact, the type and details of wall interior leaf decoupling will dictate a hundred other details too, such as HVAC grill/rester duct decoupling, width of door jambs/thresholds, finish flooring heights vs thresholds and trim/baseboard details and fastening, electrical connections and box penetrations, lighting mounts and J boxes, etc etc etc. There are tons of these type of details that unless you like trying to match things up after the fact or in hindsight, should be delt with by thinking out EVERY SINGLE section, detail, technique, fastening etc etc etc. My BEST advice is PLAN PLAN and PLAN. Oh, did I mention planning? Nothing is worse with this type of construction than forgetting to deal with something after the fact that should have been thought through BEFORE the drywall is up and caulked. Personally, planning is THE difficult part. Actual construction and detailing becomes easier IF you have totally planned every detail in advance. Even a 1/8" oversight in Jamb width can throw off the best of intentions. Door latchs/strike plates, door thickness and perimeter gaps, stop overlays and seals, etc etc etc. Here is what I mean. Here is a detail I drew for a Vocal booth door. Planning at this level assures attention to detail when building and successfull isolation results.
fitZ

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Oops, forgot to add this.

Is there any practical and effective way to add mass between the joists, to avoid the PITA of moving many pipes, conduits, and HVAC pipes?

Yes. To beef up the floor leaf above the ceiling, use construction adhesive to adhere ONE layer of drywall beteen joists, directly to the subfloor. This layer should help dampen vibration(not proved) but recommended by others. Then caulk ALL joints. Now SCREW or hold up a second or more layer with perimeter wood cleats, screwed to the joists. Again, caulk all joints(others have said this layer is the only layer that has to be caulked-I tend to think ALL layers should be). Now, fill these joist cavities with batt type insulation making sure all penetrations through the floor above have been caulked. PRior to this work though, should be planning and descions made on the type of cieling DECOUPLING solutions. Again, Resiliant channel, and Risc clip on hat channel are two options. The latter being the better of the two, although more expensive and time consuming, although it will also carry more weight.

However, it behooves me to mention a few other things. HVAC ducting to other rooms and ANY duct connections to the basement with these same ducts must be addressed. These are flanking paths that will totally negate ALL other solutions to adding and decoupling ceiling/floor leaf mass. Let us know what your situation is. Another is ventilation if NO HVAC is used. "Soundproof"= "airproof". Heat generation by humans, lights, equipment and lack of fresh air makes for MISERABLE sessions, especially in humid climates.
Well, thats about it for the scope of this post. Hope this brings to light some of the details of SUCCESSFUL isolation construction although there are TONS more information. Tell us some more about your plans and what exists and we will try to illuminate some dark corners.
fitZ

 

[spiderman2812]

well i guess if i was fucin rich iwouldn't have to worry about now would i sorry ohhhh genius rick! not everyone has a million dollar budget

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

well i guess if i was fucin rich iwouldn't have to worry about now would i sorry ohhhh genius rick! not everyone has a million dollar budget

Hey asshole, who's thread was this anyway. And what MILLION DOLLAR BUDGET? Besides, if ANY BODY has no budget its me. If you don't get the picture of what I was trying to illustrate, too fucking bad. Thats what it takes to isolate HIGH DB PROFILES. What more can I say. Do what ever your budget allows. All I was trying to do was illustrate WHY Low Frequency Transmission Loss is important to address IF you are trying to create HIGH DB isolation. PERIOD. Furthermore, I took my time to help with some details that also must be addressed IF you don't want to waste the money spent on the MASS. So if you have a problem with me doing so, thats your problem, not mine.

NO ONE SAID ISOLATION CONSTRUCTION WAS CHEAP. Thats usually why people don't understand why their isolation FAILS. If you don't have the budget, you don't have the budget.

And by the way. I'n no fucking genious. Everything I've learned is so "I" don't WASTE what little budget I have, and to build with what I do have to maximize every fucking dollar. THAT IS THE POINT!!!

Another thing, what the hell did you expect. Chill asked questions. I gave answers. Sorry it wasn't the answers YOU needed, which is....

HOW TO ISOLATE 110DB DRUMS AT MIDNIGHT FOR A BUCK
fitZ