The quest for tone: Overdubbing Guitar+Effects

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shaunp

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Hi all,

First, sorry for the long post. I've never done any guitar overdubs and have got to figure this out. I want a thick distorted lead sound like in Smashing Pumpkins' "Today" and hear there were like ~200 guitars overdubbed on that. I dig the idea of starting the studio work and have pretty good ears but definitely need help from you mad scientist types out there to get the right guitar texture.

What types of distortion pedals mix well together? I'm playing with a Big Muff Pi (Russian), MXR 104+, and a Boss DS-1 (ick...). Any favorite pedals/settings you like to use for overdubs? Are there any effects I should stay away from with so many overdubs, like reverb, etc. Are there any that are absolutely required here, like noise suppression or compression?

Which amps tend to mix well in your experience? I've got a Marshall Valvestate VS-100 and can probably get my hands on a Magnatone and some solid-state amps too. Anyone ever get good results overdubbing both solid-state and tube amps? Point me to any popular rock recordings you know of where different amps were mixed on the same guitar track.

I'm gonna buy a mic or two for this. My Shure SM-57 and Shure AXS-4 have gotten me through a lot, but I need tone now dammit ;-) Recommend me a cool guitar mic that'll double as a good vocal mic (in the studio) and I'll demo it. THANKS FOR ANY HELP ON THIS ONE!!! Yes, I'm on a musician's budget.

How should I handle phase problems with that many guitars? I mean, I'd hate to borrow a friend's equipment only to have it disappear in the mix. For whatever reason I'm really concerned about this since I'll have to mic the vintage tube amps and since mixing different pedals+amps should introduce phase problems anyhow. Are there any software tools/plugins/etc. that help fix phase problems after a take? Would a ReAmp (www.reamp.com) help solve these problems? I'm thinking of picking one up anyways just to save me from fatigue and my sloppy guitar playing ;-)

Is there any hope of getting the same overdubbed tone live? How can I do this?

These are probably the biggest questions I've got out of the thousands I could ask. Props to all y'all who can help here.

Cheers,
Shaun
 
Some guys like the MD421...helps with filling in low freq...also, a Ribbon mic helps add depth...

When it comes to mics and amps...there's never enough...I have eight ins with my Delta 1010 (technically there's more..but) and I use all of them for one amp sometimes - 2 57's, an e609s, MD421 (all next to the grill) 2 Oktava MK012's (in XY about 4 feet back and two feet up; a 4040 and a SP C1 in XY about 6 fieet back and 4 feet up...

It takes time to find the right spots - and it sucks when you're alone...

It's also helpful to use more than 1 amp - I've heard it said "the more the better". One guy I know used 16 mics on 4 amps... a Royer 121, an MD421 and a 57 on each grill, and a LDC 4 feet back... Same guy taught me that "You don't have to use all the signals you aquire, but you can mix them together and place them in the mix to create that wall you're looking for." I'm still learning, but I'm closer when I use all my best mics and pick and choose the signals that mix best

For great crunch I find that nothing (especially a pedal) can replace tube overdrive. I go for a bluesy tone, so I use a Fender Concert - and when I can borrow one I use a Matchless DC30. If you want a metal tone try a Marshall or Peavey. Something more like modern alt use a Mesa or a Bogner or a Hiwatt. Go for tube!

If you can't buy this stuff see if you can borrow it or try to rent it for the weekend you're recording...most studio's have that kind of gear for pros to choose from for the tone they want.

Last piece of advice...don't use the amp same settings you use live...experiment with your treble/mid/bass/presence/etc. to find a decent recording tone...

Jacob

P.s...do the math...16 signals means you don't have to overdub too much to get up to 200+ signals...eg: "today" - how'd you find that out anyway? Does anyone know if it's true?
 
Thanks for the great advice Jacob. The info on mic models, configurations and placement is awesome and has gotten me to a point where I can visualize more of how I'd like to have things setup and what else I'd like to experiment with. Also, I'm going to focus primarily on mics and mic pres for the near future. The philosophy of 'mic as much as possible then pick and choose later' has struck a chord so props to whoever gave you that advice. Also, regardless of what guitars, pickups, strings, picks, cables, amps, pedals, etc. I use I'll still have to nail the mics to get good recorded tone anyways. Duh! LOL.

The MD421 looks like it'll be a good permanent addition to my setup - I've wanted a large diaphragm mic for a while. I'm also really interested in experimenting with the mics you're using for XY in the far-field and want to play with different mic configs, placement, and patterns. The MK012's look especially cool for learning to use different polar patterns in a recording environment.

About finding the "right spots", I've had to do this before and it is a big PITA no matter how I seem to go about it (even if I'm not the musician - how many times have you heard "keep playing, I've almost got it"). I've had time to really think about it now and am 100% on buying a reamp device for this project to help with this and everything else. Little Labs' Red Eye (http://www.littlelabs.com/redeye.html) seems to be priced like the ReAmp unit but it's also a direct box and has phase invert so I can knock out three birds with one stone. If you do a lot of mic setup or have a lot of equipment around to play with you should definitely look into one of these things.

You'd talked about how ribbon mics help add depth and I'd like to understand this more (just in case I can get one :). What would a ribbon mic add compared to a condenser or dynamic? It is a polar pattern thing (figure-8), frequency/phase response, max SPL, etc.? I'll check the mic forum too for depth techniques/equipment. Thx for setting me on the path.

About the amps, I've heard a "mean" sound from a friend's Hiwatt stack and am definitely going to pull this into the studio with me. A case of Corona should just about do it. The Mesa's have a good rep too - I'll actively search one out and see about renting one. Victoria's sound amazing and an Orange would just be fun to have around. But now I'm just talking about my wishlist. For the record, I'm 100% with you on tube. And I'll make a point of experimenting outside of my live tone. What do you like to do differently in the studio vs. live?

BTW - I found out about the "Today" thing a few weeks ago while out drinking with the previous Pro Audio manager from my local Guitar Center. He's a pretty sharp dude and has my respect. Since I've been meaning to talk with him more about it anyway I'll post whatever passes my way, rumor or not. Also, SPFC.org is a really good resource for Smashing Pumpkins gear info and more. Thanks again!
 
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As an owner of Siamese Dream (brings me back to my high school days), I actually think that though the album is good musically it is actually pretty poorly recorded (a bit thin sounding, almost no bass, harsh highs). Try listening to the album with a good pair ($100+ Grado, Sennheiser, Audio Technica, Beyer, AKG) of headphones and you'll see what I mean.

The guitar sound on "Today" should not be too hard to accomplish with a solid body Les Paul, amp modeler (if you're on a budget), and fuzz effect, with a fair amount of compression thrown in.

I'd have to agree with an interview with Steve Albini back in the mid 90s who stated that the alt. rock recordings of that time would eventually sound as bad as the synth-drums of the 80s due to way too much compression and fuzz on the guitars. But I digress...

Good luck,

Ron
 
Just to answer your questions: I don't know the how or why of Ribbon mics, but I've just learned that they produce a very different signal when compared to an LDC or a dynamic mic. Most people say that they're really warm and smooth. I've found that's true, and I find that because they're quasi-figure-8 they give a wider picture, and more ambience than a cardoid. That's what I mean by depth.

For amping live versus studio, I find that the bass is cut, and the mids come up a lot more. I like that scooped sound live, and it gives me a great, smooth Overdrive when i role of my tone. When I'm in the studio, to get that tone I find it sucks without any mids in there. It's hard to say there's exact settings on an amp....I find that each situation requires me to redail the eq...

Jacob
 
For some reason, I thought that SM used a chorus, then distortion pedal (or the other way around). There is a light flanging sort of sound on that album, I think, and it's the chorus that produces that. I think that I read this somewhere....?

I'm an acoustic guy, so I'm hardly focused on getting fat distortion sounds. But, if you ask me, I try to get a good sound in the room. Mic with one SM57, then play it exactly the same twice. Pan the two parts hard right and hard left. There's nothing that feels more "rock" than tracking the second panned guitar to me....

You will probably get more focused advice if you either post a clip of your current tone...or tell the group what your curent tone is lacking.

I can't even imagine 8 mic's on a guitar amp. Jeez....didn't punk bands use one 57 on each instrument in the old days...?
 
First order of business: kick that Valvestate to the curb.


Magnatones are pretty cool, and can dial in some interesting tones. But you're also going to want to layer in some EL-34 based distortion; think Marshall Plexi or JCM-800 with with a good sustain pedal and the master volume cranked to high heaven. Like JCura mentions, you're going to want to get the bulk of your distortion from the amp, rather than some cheap pedal -- although I would highly recommend throwing in a track using the Sovtek Big Muff, as that is part of what makes up that tone, for sure.

I really like that guitar sound, by the way. I can't believe Albini dogs on it. Fuck him. That sound, along with My Bloody Valentine was the definitive wall of guitar from a fantastic era in music history.

.
 
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