The MSH-4!

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apl said:
Seriously, the thing that makes tubes sound good is their own brand of harmonic distortion. Transistors don't distort the same way. This will be a sweet mic!
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Is that like the difference between tube and ss amps? I'm a big fan of tubes in that respect.
 
jonnyc said:
Is that like the difference between tube and ss amps? I'm a big fan of tubes in that respect.
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That's a complicated topic. The way tubes are used in mics and amps is rather different. In a microphone, well originally they were used mainly because transistors hadn't been invented yet, and they were needed as a current amplifier and impedance converter. Later on, people thought FET microphones were completely groovy. No external power supply!

In a similar way, Leo Fender never designed his guitar amps to distort. But his customers were a bit more clever :)

So while it can be said that in both cases, tubes are now prized for their nonlinearities, the original use was more pragmatic. Indeed, the particular tube distortion now prized by guitar players is a result of the voltage gain provided by the first stage slamming the second half of a preamp tube hard and causing clipping. That is not the whole picture though, as there are the further nonlinearities of power tubes, transformers, and tube rectifiers to consider.

In a tube microphone, the picture is perhaps even more complicated. They are not designed to distort, and certainly not to clip. Even in the AT3060, it is not simply a matter of harmonic distortion caused by clipping or tube saturation. In fact if you measure THD of the AT3060, it's actually pretty good. Much better than the MSH-4. Of course AT used a specialized (patent applied for) transformer and DC-DC converters in their circuit. But the thing about the AT is it SOUNDS like it generates harmonic distortion. What the nonlinearities actually are, I don't know, it's tough to measure and state as a statistic. But I like it :cool:
 
MSH, or anyone else for that matter: Can you fill me in on the basics of harmonic distortion and why it's nice for acoustic instruments?


...'cause to tell you honestly, I bought a MSH-4 because it said limited quantities available and I wanted to be the first to try it out. What's the deal? I've looked up the definition, but I don't know what it means in relation to the sound of the mic.
 
auralmirage said:
MSH, or anyone else for that matter: Can you fill me in on the basics of harmonic distortion and why it's nice for acoustic instruments?
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Mmm, OK. It goes to the nature of the sound of an instrument (or voice). The timbre of an instrument--basically what makes it sound like itself and not another instrument--is defined by a few traits, such as attack/sustain/decay, which are probably familiar terms from synthesis, but also importantly its overtones.

When you play a note on an instrument, you have the fundamental pitch of the note, A above middle C=440Hz for example, but depending on the timbre of the instrument (for example, an oboe has lots, a flute few), lots of multiples of that fundamental as well (880, 1320, 1760, etc).

The musical relationship of those overtones can be described in terms of the interval to the fundamental: the first overtone is an octave, second is octave and a fifth, third is another octave. Once you get into higher order overtones, they get both higher in pitch and more dissonant in terms of their harmonic relation to the fundamental, eventually departing from the diatonic scale entirely.

So while low-order overtones are kinda like having somebody singing above you in harmony, high-order overtones are generally thought to be less desirable, maybe like buzzing bees or nails on a chalkboard or something.

Anytime you introduce nonlinearities into a signal, that is a distortion. The question is what is the nature of the distortion? One simple type of distortion occurs in a solid-state (transistor) circuit when the gain is driven past the voltage available. The result is called hard clipping, and it creates a squarewave. The squarewave can be broken down back into the fundamental sine wave, and lots of little low to high order overtones. In the case of extreme clipping, there are lots of those little high order overtone sine waves embedded in your signal that really make it sound like crap. This is why hard-clipping solid state distortion circuits for guitar amps are commonly regarded as poo. Example: '80s vintage Peavey amps :D

So instead, once we accept low-order harmonic distortion as a goal for signal enhancement, we seek out circuit that can generate those overtones without clipping and creating the high-order overtones. In guitar pedals, there are lots of popular options, such as germanium diodes or transistors, or my personal favorite, LEDs :cool:

And then there are tubes . . .


Now, it all that nice for acoustic instruments? It really, really, really depends on what you are trying to do.
 
Never knew what harmonic distortion meant until I read that, thanks. :)

I'd love to hear an A/B test on your tube mic and another condensor, or just a clip of the MSH-4 on guitar. I heard clips of your MSH-1 (A?) when browsing the forums and it sounded just as good, if not better than my MXL.

How many have you made, or how many are you planning on making? Or is the "limited quantity" a marketing ploy? ;)
 
mshilarious said:
In guitar pedals, there are lots of popular options, such as germanium diodes or transistors, or my personal favorite, LEDs :cool:

And then there are tubes . . .
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GREAT explanation....and GREAT mics. I'm 'enjoying' mine ALOT!

...though, I bit OT, but in reference to the above statement on petals, with transistors, etc..
..I just got this 'preamp' in (as it's a bit MUCH to be called a pedal), but it has two 12AX7 (and NOT at a starving plate, but 250v!) along with a opto compressor, pre and post EQ, DI out, etc....this thing is AMAZING! It's NOT exactly cheap, but worth at least twice the price....and NO, I have NOTHING to do with them, etc.

http://www.damagecontrolusa.com/dmz.htm
 

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Under the category of a picture being worth a thousand words, this represents about 1.6% THD:
 
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gobblefisher said:
So has anybody received their MSH-4 yet? Any samples?
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What are you, psychic? I just got mine today and I swear I was just about to grab a mic cable and record the phrase I promised you!!!! :eek:
 
OK, here it is.

Recorded in my control room. I plugged the mic into my Mackie 1604 and set it on the edge of my mixing table on top of the coiled up mic cable. Then sat in front of it and did this improv song accompanying myself on my new acoustic. The noise in the background is the fan of my Crown power amp.

Lyrics:

gobblefisher
You are an enabler
I hope you're happy
That I bought this mic

My MSH-4
Has a little tube inside it
And I don't know
If it's got an LED behind it because I can't see it
 
sounds good man. think you could do a quick comparison with one of your favorite mics? i'd like to hear a comparison between the msh-1a and the msh-4 too. just so we can get an idea of what the tube adds to the mics sound.

when i get some free cash i'm gonna order some mics from mshilarious. with all the info he has provided, i know i could build these things myself but i think he deserves the support. i'm curious to see what else he can cram into an xlr. how about a fuzz crammed into a big o' quarter inch connector? :eek: come on man, i know you can do it. keep up with the good work.

has anyone tracked vocals with any of these mics yet? i know small condensors normally are'nt the first choice mic for a vocal but i'm curious as to how they perform.
 
mshilarious said:
I use a 1kHz test tone and analyze the results on an FFT. It's quite clear to see the peak of each harmonic.
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I hear Behringer wants to talk to you....................................
 
TravisinFlorida said:
i'm curious to see what else he can cram into an xlr. how about a fuzz crammed into a big o' quarter inch connector?
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That's actually pretty easy, try a pair of 1N34A diodes.
 
Off Topic

recordingpro, that was me who just neg repped you.

I don't pay much attention to the rep stuff usually.

First neg rep I can remember giving. I wouldn't have if you had identified yourself in the neg rep you just gave me. Didn't like the polka dot joke, you say? Dumb joke sure, but say your piece without being weasely about it and hiding behind anonymous negative rep.

Tim
 
I wonder about the tube being in a very small casing with no apparent ventalation. MSH, how did you make that work? I would think the tube would get hot and in turn need ventalation and or make the case hot as well :confused:
 
TravisinFlorida said:
sounds good man. think you could do a quick comparison with one of your favorite mics? i'd like to hear a comparison between the msh-1a and the msh-4 too. just so we can get an idea of what the tube adds to the mics sound.
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I was actually thinking the same thing. I'll do that when I have a chance.
 
TaperChuck said:
I wonder about the tube being in a very small casing with no apparent ventalation. MSH, how did you make that work? I would think the tube would get hot and in turn need ventalation and or make the case hot as well :confused:
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it's a low power tube.
 
TravisinFlorida said:
it's a low power tube.
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Very low power, like .01W. It doesn't glow at all, and the glass stays at room temperature.
 
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