The Most Confusing Forum for a Mic

[noisedude]

Oh please! You do right to put your music first - but no-one can like/dislike mics so accurately without having a decent set of ears and the ability to use them. Yes, you are one of the most articulate and measured writers on the forum, but don't forget that if you had nothing to write about then all of your posts would be blank anyway!!!

As usual, Richie is talking sense big time. The conclusion I reached quite a while ago is that, at the cheaper end at least, pretty much all mics are going to be able to do a job for you. I would choose then on positive user feedback, and the probability of decent customer service. I understand that the situation has changed now, with Sonic Distribution coming on board, but when I bought an SE Electronics mic I had to post a warranty card to the USA just to register for it being looked after! On the other hand, there are companies who have been known to take second-hand mics or ones that have clearly been misused, and get them working again. They're the companies I want to spend my hard-earned overdraft, I mean cash, on.

 

[acorec]

Well, I've seem to have overloaded myself with contradictory information from this forum. I've been to a lot of different types of forums over the years, and this forum has both helped me and confused the hell out of me.

I've not seen so much discrepency over a product than I have here. I really came here to try to figure out a good (relative term, and none moreso than on this forum) mic to record my AC GTR and vox in my project studio (what I thought was called a home studio, but now realize its called a project studio).

So far, I've identified several camps:
1) Dynamic mics (RE, Beyer, etc...)
2) Chinese mics (MXL, SP, AT, AKD, AKG, etc...)
3) Anything but Chinese mics (Neumann, Schoepps, etc...)

Within those groups, there are sub groups:
1a) Expensive dynamic mics
1b) Inexpensive but good value dynamic mics
2a) Some Chinese mics are excellent bang for the buck, then again these suck to some people
2b) Some Chinese mics still have a long way to go, but they're getting there. Except to some people that the Chinese mics will never get there (wherever there is, though it SOUNDS like its supposed to be a U87)
3a) Some Chinese mics are supporting communist China and anyone who buys them is a moron because they can't tell the difference between a high quality mic from shit
3b) Some Chinese mics are rip offs of expensive mics and the owners are pissed about it. By far my least favorite poster on this forum because they've consistently skewed just about every review.

As a newbie, I shut my mouth and listen. But, I've not seen so much animosity toward anything Chinese. This forum has put the Wal-Mart bashers to shame. So, I thought I would share with everyone that I'm more confused now than when I first started coming here in November (though I didn't register until December).

I monitor this forum every day for at least a few hours. And now, I'm further from what I came here for.

But, its free, and I'll take from it what I can. I'll be around for awhile, and over the years I hope to post my unbiased opinions from experience with mics. Then again, is it possible to have an unbiased opinion? Probably not, so I'll describe it as a "no hidden agenda" opinion.

Regards,
Mark

The problem you have found has to do with this being a Home Recording site. The vast majority record in a home environment with rooms and monitoring environments that are not even close to ideal. Each recorder will get different results with the same equipment and probably never realize that it is their recording environment that changes the sound usually for the worse.They then blame the mic/pre/etc.(I just got it so it must be to blame) You have to accept the fact that it is only in your soundchain in your recording environment that a mic/mic pre/etc. will prove it's worth. If you start reading some pro recording boards, you will find that because those guys know their environment (most are designed to be acoustically right) most of the wild differences in how a mic/pre/etc. sound get closer to the truth and you get a better idea what to expect out of a piece of equipment.


THe chinese mic "thing" - Many of the chinese mics are perfectly usable and can sound great. The animosity comes from some of the sales guys who continually seem to compare $100 mics to mics costing thousands. This misinformation gets to the newbies and they seem to actually believe it. Then the fights start about everything *exept* the actual mic. Instead of comparing their $100 mic to anything in that price point (their competition!) they make these wild assertions about their budget mics, so many pros use them, etc.


In the end it is up to you to decide, based in reality, if a $500-1000 mic is a better mic than a $100 mic.

Good Luck.

 

[Big Kenny]

Each recorder will get different results with the same equipment and probably never realize that it is their recording environment that changes the sound usually for the worse.They then blame the mic/pre/etc.(I just got it so it must be to blame) You have to accept the fact that it is only in your soundchain in your recording environment that a mic/mic pre/etc. will prove it's worth.

That is such a big part of it. The room you use this stuff in will have a great effect on its' sound and the room is often overlooked while being one of the most important variables in the equation

 

[crazydoc]

... And what you learned is that there are a lot of different opinions on the subject. You've learned that what works for one guy in a given situation may not work for another guy in a different situation. It also looks like you've come to the conclusion that you're going to have to have some personal experience with some of this stuff in order to come to any conclusions of your own. -As opposed to having some anonymous stranger on the web spoon feed you the answers.

This is the bottom line - you just have to get some stuff and use it. Rent it if you can. Buy it and resell it if you have to. No one here can tell you what will work for you. Don't agonize over it. When all is said and done, you just have to shit and get off the pot.

The music and the "talent" (artist and engineer) are much more important to a good recording than the gear. We've all heard great stuff recorded with what some folks here consider shit gear, and shit recorded with great gear.

It's not a life and death decision - pretty small potatoes in the scheme of things.

Just get something and use it for your education.

 

[robgb]

forget what you read in advertising-funded mags

I used to write a column for an internationally distributed magazine. The column included gear and software reviews made by companies who advertised in the magazine, its major source of revenue.

Never once did anyone tell me what to say. Never once did I pull my punches if I didn't like a product. There was ONE time that I was particularly hard on our biggest advertiser's latest big thing, and while the editor/publisher wasn't happy -- said the client would not be thrilled -- he published the review anyway. Not one word was changed.

I understand your skepticism about "advertising-funded mags." But the thing is this -- they're ALL advertising funded. And I truly doubt they'd have many readers if all they did was praise their advertisers products.

So I think that painting them all with such a broad brush is sorely misguided. Reviews in magazines can be very illuminating and it's really pretty foolish to discount them all. Should we treat them as gospel? Of course not. But they can serve as a valuable tool in helping us select our gear.

 

[noisedude]

I know what you're saying - but I can't remember EVER reading a bad review in SOS. I know that in theory they only print reviews for the best stuff they have in to look at, but what help is that? We all know that most gear is actually alright nowadays, but how about telling us the pieces they think are bona fide stinkers?

 

[robgb]

I know what you're saying - but I can't remember EVER reading a bad review in SOS. I know that in theory they only print reviews for the best stuff they have in to look at, but what help is that? We all know that most gear is actually alright nowadays, but how about telling us the pieces they think are bona fide stinkers?

I can't argue with that....

 

[vangore]

Yo Aceboy! For the record, AKG's by and large, are made in Austria, and aren't Chinese. ADK's are made in Canada, CAD in the U.S. Rode used to be made partly in China, but they are in the process of moving their production facilities entirely to Australia. While I'm not strongly political, I will generally tend to buy products that don't come from countries that have missiles pointed at me.

I take it that this means nobody should buy any thing made in the U.S?

 

[Aceboympk]

What's the Deal with John Peluso?

Everyone, thanks so much for your feedback. Yes, I do believe that I'm further along than I was when I first arrived.

I suppose that my frustration was my own fault. I had unrealistic expectations of purchasing a mic. I had NO idea that a mic could be compared to a paint brush. Believe it or not, I thought a mic was a mic and there would be a few within a price range that I could sample and then make a choice. I was looking for a quick solution, and though those are available, this forum reminded me of being patient and learning the art of process.

What I failed to recognize, up to this point (and thanks for making it painfully obvious to me), is that the people here really are artists. Yes, some are more scientific than others, but those whose opinions are respected are equally passionate about mics. I would have never thunk it. My ignorance of my ignorance is sometimes my greatest fault.

So, thank you again for all your guidance. I guess I just completed my first step in this journey.

Back to the point of this particular post, what is the deal with John Peluso? Is his stuff worthy of a listen? Any comparisons to some other middle of the road gear? A pair of his SD cond are $500. Are they worth it compared to the SP C4's?

Regards,
Mark

 

[Dracon]

Back to the point of this particular post, what is the deal with John Peluso? Is his stuff worthy of a listen? Any comparisons to some other middle of the road gear? A pair of his SD cond are $500. Are they worth it compared to the SP C4's?

Regards,
Mark

LOL!
Hey Mark:

I can't help but laugh at your question. You just finished realizing that most people here are artists and at times it seems no two people will have the same opinion on one item. Then you proceed to ask what's the deal with the John Peluso gear. I'm a newbie as well, and as other people have suggested. If you can pick one up and test it (however bad, or noisy of an enviorment) will always be better than not testing one. If you live near GC they are a good source of mics to that give you the ability to test. If you don't then see if there is an outfit that will rent you a mic (then you can test it in your own enviorment).

The bottom line, is it does not matter what Richie, FM Mag, or I say (not that my opinion matters). What matters is how you like the equipment and how it sounds to you. If you have some pro whom you know closely then perhaps you should try to spend every waking moment you got with him and listen to some mics he may already have.
The hardest part is deciding on something when you have no basis on what is good/bad. Behringer gear is great compared to RadioShack Gear and RadioShack gear is great compared to those little PC mics you get when you buy a computer. Set your list of priorities first (Is money more important or a quality product more important) and go from there.

 

[baekgaard]

MICS:
I'm already on board with getting a "matched" pair of SD condenser to record my guitar. Choices are: Studio Projects C4 ($320)and John Peluso CEMC-6 ($500). I'm almost afraid to ask, but I will. Anything else?

You may also consider the Oktava MK-012 or the MXL-603 -- depending on what your guitar is... Or some of the more expensive ones, since you're already at the $500 level!

1) MXL: v63, v69, v77, 960
4) SP: C1, TB-1, B-3, C-3

Well, the MXL V67G also often gets good review, and you may also consider the SP B1. Both are certainly good bang for the buck, and probably as good or better for some applications as some of the others you mention. But they are not as good as some of those that cost 10x more.

You could also check the Rode mics. They have a different flavour compared to most of the others, are not really chinese (I think) and even Ty Ford speaks positive about the newer 2x models.

BTW, you should add Ty Ford to your list of notabilities that speaks with some weight here.


I'm sure it doesn't help you narrow down your search...


-- Per.

 

[Dracon]

Well, the MXL V67G also often gets good review, and you may also consider the SP B1. Both are certainly good bang for the buck, and probably as good or better for some applications as some of the others you mention. But they are not as good as some of those that cost 10x more.

I own a V67G and I couldn't be happier with it ($99). I have a bass-baritone voice and it does great with my voice and my Spanish Nylon String guitar. My wife's voice is also great. It just has a nice coloration on the low end that the MXL 990 does not. However, I'm doing voiceovers and not rap or Rock-n-Roll. Also money was also an issue. If I could have it my way (money not being an issue) I would probably go with a Blue Mic or a Violet Mic. However, since no one is beating down my door to get recorded (especially since no one knows except the folks here), I'm not getting a $1,000+ mic any time soon. I would probably spend $1,000+ on a bunch of other stuff (Monitors, Mixer, PCI card, Computer, acoustical products) before I'd buy a mic worth that much.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Yo Dracon- One of my best tips for budget gear- Read the equipment lists of many, many, big time studios (if they publish them) right down to the headphones and cables, if they even tell you. Especially check "B" room and "C" room lists. That will identify a lot of cheap gear that works and lasts. It's especially good to find something that people don't know as much about. I have an Electrovoice N/D 257, which appears to be EV's SM-57 equivalent. Very few people use it, mostly because EV doesn't go in much for advertising, even though they build some of the best dynamic mics around.. If you find a mic in a lot of big time lockers even though it's cheap, they kept it around for a reason. Find the cheap ones. Spook around ebay for AKG D320 or 330 series mics, any of them. They are $50-75 gems.
Aceboy- Ok, you want to upgrade the mic cabinet. You have to decide if you are going to diversify a little, and get several cheap mics that work. Two good mid-priced mics, or one mic, probably a main vocal mic. I hear your real problem, that there really aren't a lot of main vocal mics in that $750-1000 range. Most are either workhorses (C414, KSM44), $500 mics (NTK, SP T-3, AT4040, or they cost $1200-$2000 (Kiwi, Neumann TLM 127, Soundelux U99, Lawson, etc.). The next jump is $3000-$5000, state of the art vocal mics. If it was one mic, I'd say consider Audio-Technica AT4060, Neumann TLM103, ADK TT. But- if I had your cabinet and a grand, I'd be looking for a small diaphragm pair and a workhorse. I would leave the main vocal mic for later, but make sure the workhorse is useable for vocals. I'd be looking on ebay for a used pair of SM81's or C451's. If that failed, I'd settle for a pair of C-4's, and a C414 or KSM44, whichever sounded better on my voice. One thing we have in common is the need to mic up acoustic guitar and vox. The 414 simply rocks on acoustic. I recently recorded a female Karaoke champion, and the 414 produced stellar results, especially on Celine Dion and Madonna.-Richie

 

[Dracon]

Yo Dracon- One of my best tips for budget gear- Read the equipment lists of many, many, big time studios (if they publish them) right down to the headphones and cables, if they even tell you. Especially check "B" room and "C" room lists. That will identify a lot of cheap gear that works and lasts. It's especially good to find something that people don't know as much about. I have an Electrovoice N/D 257, which appears to be EV's SM-57 equivalent. Very few people use it, mostly because EV doesn't go in much for advertising, even though they build some of the best dynamic mics around.. If you find a mic in a lot of big time lockers even though it's cheap, they kept it around for a reason. Find the cheap ones. Spook around ebay for AKG D320 or 330 series mics, any of them. They are $50-75 gems.

Cool! Why didn't I think of that? I'm not sure I need encouragement to get more gear, cause I've already acquired GAS due to this hobbie (not that I didn't have it before with woodworking, drawing, cycling, etc).

 

[sdelsolray]

Everyone, thanks so much for your feedback. Yes, I do believe that I'm further along than I was when I first arrived.

I suppose that my frustration was my own fault. I had unrealistic expectations of purchasing a mic. I had NO idea that a mic could be compared to a paint brush. Believe it or not, I thought a mic was a mic and there would be a few within a price range that I could sample and then make a choice. I was looking for a quick solution, and though those are available, this forum reminded me of being patient and learning the art of process.

What I failed to recognize, up to this point (and thanks for making it painfully obvious to me), is that the people here really are artists. Yes, some are more scientific than others, but those whose opinions are respected are equally passionate about mics. I would have never thunk it. My ignorance of my ignorance is sometimes my greatest fault.

So, thank you again for all your guidance. I guess I just completed my first step in this journey.

Back to the point of this particular post, what is the deal with John Peluso? Is his stuff worthy of a listen? Any comparisons to some other middle of the road gear? A pair of his SD cond are $500. Are they worth it compared to the SP C4's?

Regards,
Mark

Talk to Dot (Dan Richards) and Henry Robinette. Dot's got his own site and visits many sites regularly. Henry hangs on many sites too. They have ears I trust and they both have used (and are impressed with) the Peluso SDs. BTW, those posts you saw trashing Peluso basically all stem from some old run in between Peluso and Fletcher. It sems like pretty old news, and a fairly isolated incident, as far as I can tell (or care).

 

[dgatwood]

Well, I've seem to have overloaded myself with contradictory information from this forum. I've been to a lot of different types of forums over the years, and this forum has both helped me and confused the hell out of me.

I've not seen so much discrepency over a product than I have here.

Like the old saying says.... "How do you get two engineers to agree? Shoot one of them."

What I failed to recognize, up to this point (and thanks for making it painfully obvious to me), is that the people here really are artists. Yes, some are more scientific than others, but those whose opinions are respected are equally passionate about mics. I would have never thunk it. My ignorance of my ignorance is sometimes my greatest fault.

Are you quoting Rumsfeld? "As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know."

Suddenly, my head hurts.

 

[ljmaxx]

MICS:
I'm already on board with getting a "matched" pair of SD condenser to record my guitar. Choices are: Studio Projects C4 ($320)and John Peluso CEMC-6 ($500). I'm almost afraid to ask, but I will. Anything else?

For a LD, I'm REALLY struggling because of so many conflicting posts. Problem is, not only which manufacturer, but which model. To underscore this, consider in one post, I read about how great the "new" MXL 960 sounds ($179 on sale at MF). Of course, that praise was immediately followed by, "NO, NO, NO, no cheap Chinese mikes damn it!"

Regards,
Mark

Take a listen to a matched pair of Crown CM700's for SD condenser's. I have a set and they are excellent on acoustic guitar.

For LDC's listen to an SE H3500 which excells on male vox and can be bought for less than $300 on ebay. I have a matched pair of ADK Hamburgs which sound pretty good on vox and they give an acoustic guitar a really fat sound. If you'd like to hear these mics in use PM me and I'll send you a link. As always trust your own ears before whatever anyone else says. Good luck.

Jim

 

[wes480]

this is more of a personal experience thing...not really a reccomendation.

I never spent a lot of time in the mic forum for a lot of the reasons you mentioned. Only if I wanted to get some peoples views of a certain mic - but I am fully aware that there is so much gear out there that I could never afford the time or money to track it all down and try it out - so I might as well just jump in and make some music at some point.

I've actually gathered up several of the hot topic mics over the past couple of years. I started with an SM57 and an SM58. The 57 I've found a lot more useful and like the sound of more even though they are supposedly the same thing +/- a pop filter.

Then I got a Rode NT3, loved it. A few months later scraped together the money for a second.

I was so impressed with Rode that my next purchase was an NTK. I didn't like it so much at first but I have now come to love it's lack of "hype" to the sound.

Got a studio projects C1 and it sounded great solo but I didn't like what it did for my mixes the more I used it, especially for lots of tracks in a mix.

Got all kinds of other things, an RE20, an AT Pro 25, Behringer ECM8000's (only 60 bucks for the pair...but probably the worst 'advice' I ever took. Not because it's a bad mic but because the way I was doing things and the room I was in I had no use for omnis. this is a great case of buying something that won't work for you just because everyone else is doing it.)

I have a couple of other things - and for me...at the end of the day I realized I was recording less and my tracks weren't as good as when I had only a few mics.

Somehow it was too overwhelming for me. When you don't have a lot of skills, the last thing you need is a big mic cabinet. When the best mic I had was an NT3...and I worked and worked with it to get the best out of all of my instruments...for me, it was more fun and more rewarding. Now there is the inclination to say "hmm..maybe that's the wrong mic."

I'm not saying I want to give away everything I have...just saying in some ways compiling more and more gear too quickly (in a project studio) is a curse and not a blessing. I've found this to be more true with mics than anything.

In terms of some more practical advice - I know I will never buy another "budget" mic again. I've tried out lots of mics of friends (mxls, ats, etc.) and have never been moved enough to say WOW! I have to have that one! It all starts having a similar sound after a while.

As I mature in the craft, and (hopefully) make more money at my day job, I am going to make "lifetime" purchases from now on. I'm not in any rush to do this because I am happy with what I have for now - at the same time, I am convinced that there isn't anything for a few hundred bucks more that could sway me away from the NT3s. But, KM184's on the other hand probably could...and the better and more classic the item, the better resale value it has if it ever came to that.

There are some mics that don't cost an arm and a leg but are still considered by many to be 'world class'...and I would be open to looking at those as well (such as the Dragonfly or Mouse - but Blue is kind of in it's own league in some ways).

What I am going on and on trying to say is that getting something that works for you is important. If you aspire for that world class sound - eventually you are going to have to pay the $$. If you are only after a level of sound which you get out of the first go-round - then more power to you...add it to your retirement account You will (hopefully) become attached to the mics that help you express your art and no one could ever take them away from you.

For me that means that if I had Neumans, SoundDeluxe's, Earthworks...etc - my NT3's and NTK will still be in my cabinet. For someone else, maybe it's the C4's and T3.

 

[Giganova]

... there really aren't a lot of main vocal mics in that $750-1000 range. Most are either workhorses (C414, KSM44), $500 mics (NTK, SP T-3, AT4040, or they cost $1200-$2000 (Kiwi, Neumann TLM 127, Soundelux U99, Lawson, etc.).

Don't forget the Gefell M930 which is around or a bit less than $1k.

 

[borntoplease]

So far, I've identified several camps:
1) Dynamic mics (RE, Beyer, etc...)

not quite... dynamic isnt a brand, its a type of mic. can withstand high SPLs and doesnt respond too well to transiants. sm57 is the classic dynamic, along with the 58 and 421... and hundreds of others.

if someone already posted this, im sorry, i just didnt feel like reading all the posts... good times