The Most Confusing Forum for a Mic

[Aceboympk]

Well, I've seem to have overloaded myself with contradictory information from this forum. I've been to a lot of different types of forums over the years, and this forum has both helped me and confused the hell out of me.

I've not seen so much discrepency over a product than I have here. I really came here to try to figure out a good (relative term, and none moreso than on this forum) mic to record my AC GTR and vox in my project studio (what I thought was called a home studio, but now realize its called a project studio).

So far, I've identified several camps:
1) Dynamic mics (RE, Beyer, etc...)
2) Chinese mics (MXL, SP, AT, AKD, AKG, etc...)
3) Anything but Chinese mics (Neumann, Schoepps, etc...)

Within those groups, there are sub groups:
1a) Expensive dynamic mics
1b) Inexpensive but good value dynamic mics
2a) Some Chinese mics are excellent bang for the buck, then again these suck to some people
2b) Some Chinese mics still have a long way to go, but they're getting there. Except to some people that the Chinese mics will never get there (wherever there is, though it SOUNDS like its supposed to be a U87)
3a) Some Chinese mics are supporting communist China and anyone who buys them is a moron because they can't tell the difference between a high quality mic from shit
3b) Some Chinese mics are rip offs of expensive mics and the owners are pissed about it. By far my least favorite poster on this forum because they've consistently skewed just about every review.

As a newbie, I shut my mouth and listen. But, I've not seen so much animosity toward anything Chinese. This forum has put the Wal-Mart bashers to shame. So, I thought I would share with everyone that I'm more confused now than when I first started coming here in November (though I didn't register until December).

I monitor this forum every day for at least a few hours. And now, I'm further from what I came here for.

But, its free, and I'll take from it what I can. I'll be around for awhile, and over the years I hope to post my unbiased opinions from experience with mics. Then again, is it possible to have an unbiased opinion? Probably not, so I'll describe it as a "no hidden agenda" opinion.

Regards,
Mark

 

[noisedude]

The bottom line is - suck it and see. Lots of crap gets shot on here and you have to pinch salt the whole time.

What you can't afford to forget that these here are the real users ... forget what you read in advertising-funded mags or what the salesman told you was the dogs nuts - there's no substitute for real life use and indepdent ears.

Unfortunately those things are what cause the arguments. That and a good bit of gear snobbery

 

[Han]

Lurk as much as you can, don't trust salesmen and shopkeepers, ask as much as you can if you want to know more.

There are plenty of guys here who know their shit, you'll find out who.

One thing's for sure, Schoeps, Gefell, DPA and Neumann mics are better and much more expensive than Chinese mics (still), but there will come a time that the Chinese mics are as good as or maybe even better.

Look what happened with Japanese cars and beware for what will happen with Chinese cars.

 

[Phyl]

You have to realize that some of the people here have agendas with respect to Chinese mics and a certain manufacturer in particular.

These agendas have nothing to do with presenting information in an unbiased useful manner, they have nothing to do with providing useful information to newbies. They are based solely in snobbery, jealousy, and/or a need to settle old scores.

The people I refer to are good at repeating what other more knowledgeable people have posted, but not very good at backing up claims they make with work that they have produced. You'll see their posts littered with adjectives like "this mic sucks cat eggs" but bereft of any techincal or emperical data to support their claims.

Here's my short list of people who really seem to know what they are talking about:

Chessrock (ignore the attitude - he really is quite knowledgable)
Harvey Gerst
Richie Monroe
Brent Casey
Alan Hyatt
Marik

There are plenty of others; you'll learn who they are if you stick around. Notice that I'm not on the list so take it for what it's worth.

I'm an electrical engineer who has plenty to learn about microphones and recording. I guess it's the engineering background that makes me despise people who make claims about this or that microphone without any meaningful evidence to support their claims.

 

[OneRoomStudios]

I think the best way to look at it is this (and as always, this is just MHO):

If you want to make some recordings for fun/lay down ideas, get something cheap - there's no point in spending tons of money, for these purposes, something like a Behringer or Nady would do just fine.

If you want to make "decent" recordings that you could use as a demo, and be relatively proud of, then get a "good" budget mic. For this level, the slightly better QC'd Chinese mics (SP, ADK, SE, MXL, etc) should be fine. You could also consider some of the CAD's and a few of the lower cost but still reliable dynamics (Shure, EV, Beyer, etc).

If you want to make serious recordings that you could possibly use for a self-recorded album or takes that you could use in a semi professional situation (indie/buget releases), then look to AT 40 series, Shure KSM series, higher end dynamics (SM7, RE20, 441, Beyer ribbons, etc) and other "reliable but cheap" pro equipment.

If you want to make full-on pro quality recordings that can compete with the best of them, then look at Neumann, Royer, MT Geffell, Soundelux, and all the other hi-end boutique mics.

The other thing to consider is that mics are a relatively small part of the equation. Skill at mic placement/mixing/mastering, etc plays a MUCH larger part in how your recordings will sound. Plus, you have to consider the rest of your chain...preamps, A/D's, monitors, cables and everything also factor in to the quality of sound you will get.

In all of this just remember that it's supposed to be fun, unless it's work...and then you should be getting paid for it.



Also, just to nit-pick, you listed AT as Chinese, actually they're Japanese, and IMHO, a step above the Chinese mics (maybe with the exception of the 2020).


-Peter

 

[noisedude]

There are plenty of guys here who know their shit, you'll find out who.

And Han is one of them ... though he is too modest to claim it for himself. You quite often find that the most knowledgable guys are either the nicest or total asswipes. Han fits into the first category. I can understand why some others don't have the patience, but I end up wondering why they post on here with newbies to start with.

Also ... Taiwan used to be a byword for crap goods, now it's the centre of the world for quality computer components (Gigabyte being a prime example of the more expensive end of the motherboard market).

 

[noisedude]

Here's my short list of people who really seem to know what they are talking about:

Chessrock (ignore the attitude - he really is quite knowledgable)
Harvey Gerst
Richie Monroe
Brent Casey
Alan Hyatt
Marik

What I love is that Richie is on that list. He's a home recordist made from scratch. It gives hope to us all that it can be done (though I may never have the rooms or available budget that he has managed to find).

EDIT - I may also never have Richie's talent ... but that's beside the point

 

[crazydoc]

It ain't rocket science - in fact it ain't even science. It's mostly opinion and ego fed with a giant load of bullshit. You're never going to get a consensus here, so don't waste your time.

Sounds like you need a mic for instrument and vocals. I don't know what the rest of your gear is (preamp and recording device), but for starters a SDC and a LDC should be fine. (Or just one neutral LDC if you're really strapped.)

It really doesn't matter which ones you get - any of them will be just fine for your current needs. Just buy within your budget, start recording, and in some period of time, depending on your learning curve, you may decide you need to try some different gear.

But for now, the most important thing is to get some experience. Your recordings are going to be lacking at first due to your inexperience, so top of the line gear isn't going to make a bit of difference.

Consider your initial investment as paying for an education, not as a gear purchase to last you forever.

 

[Han]

Nik, I'm flattered! Thank you very nice (indian accent).

Also ... Taiwan used to be a byword for crap goods, now it's the centre of the world for quality computer components

Germany used to be the leading country in technical stuff, remember how well they can make everyting from mics to cars, they were te first with a jet plane, the first with missiles, they made better tanks in WW2.

Now one out of every eight Germans is unemployed and it will get worse.

 

[jeffree]

Ace, I've thought the same thing many times. Still, I've learned a heckuva lot here since my arrival a ouple of years ago. I agree with Phyl--with a bit of time and memory, you can develop your own list of most trusted folks here.
My own list is composed of folks who (1) obviously know a lot more than I do, which is not hard to do and (2) aren't so sure of themselves that they wear blinders. These are folks who understand that different people have different needs, that one size doesn't fit all, and that musical tastes differ greatly. Generally, those who are 100% sure in their opinions (I'm right, you're wrong, so UFO) are the folks I take less seriously. Fortunately, there are plenty of the other type sharing helpful thoughts here.

Good luck in your search,

J.

 

[mshilarious]

It ain't rocket science - in fact it ain't even science.

This is as ridiculous as it is true. Harvey will tell you that response curves aren't to be trusted, which is sad. It's difficult to understand why critical performance criteria cannot be objectively measured. Mostly what we get is a somewhat trustworthy set of statistics that were set as standards 40 or 50 years ago.

If there was a industry publication that performed independent tests, much of this silliness could be quantified. At a minimum, manufacturers could publish accurate data on response curves, polar response at various frequencies, and distortion at various frequencies. I've never seen stats on transient response, but I can't fathom why that can't be measured.

Anyway, back to your question. For your application, you want to buy the best LDC you can afford. "Best" should be defined as "best sound on your voice". Whatever mic that is will almost certainly be good enough for guitar.

If you can scrape together $300, you'll have plenty of choices.

 

[paddyponchero]

I've not seen so much discrepency over a product than I have here.

Hi Mark,

Audio is sooo subjective, 'quality' can't be measured, specifications mean nothing, one persons ideal is anothers catastophe - this make everything to do with audio a debacle. Go to DIY audio and see people arguing for weeks over which brand of capacitor to use let alone which type of capacitor.

To begin with on this forum I think the people with the best reputation are usually worth listening to. This helps to filter out a lot of the 'noise'. Later on as you read the board you will pick out others who seem consistent and helpful.

Think about the space in which you'll be recording. If you've got a crap space theres not much point in putting a $800 mic in there - you may get better results with quality dynamics. I had no acoustic treatment until I borrowed my first condenser and discovered that my previously 'live' room sounded absolutely terrible and I had to spend ages positioning the damn mic! For many homerecordists a condenser might not be a step in the right direction.

Also bear in mind that a mic may be great in one application and suck in another - so two peoples comments on the same mic may be entirely different application. When I got my oktavas I was disappointed with them on acoustic guitar, but they live up over the kit now and I'm delighted with them.

Remember you're going to want a few mics for different applications, this is even more true when you're trying to do things cheaply. So think about the applications your mainly going to be doing and look first for mics to suit those.
Then best thing you can do is go and try them for yourself.

Best of Luck

PAddy

 

[Flatpicker]

...But, its free, and I'll take from it what I can.

Hehe, that's always the catch, bottom line, or whatever... You get what you pay for!

Seriously though, there is some good info here, so hang around.

 

[Bob's Mods]

And from time to time some great comical posts as well! A good laugh is always welcome.

 

[Aceboympk]

What I'm trying to do

Sorry if my original post rubbed anyone the wrong way. I just am a little frustrated because there are people on this forum who will forget more than I'll ever know and it seems like there are other less skilled people who disqualify their opinions because of an agenda that has less to do with music than with politics, social issues, buyer's remoarse, etc...

I bought a Presonus Firepod because of the CONSISTENT reviews. I thought that would have been the hardest piece of equipment to buy. But that was easy compared to a mic. But, it is what it is, and now I'm trying to match the quality of the Presonus and a mic. Several people told me not to worry about the Presonus because it has pretty good ADC. I think it has the same as the RME Fireface or at least very close to it.

So, I'm trying to get the best bang for my dollar so I don't have to spend more money/time upgrading because I'm unhappy with the sound. But, that doesn't mean that I want a Chinese made mic solely because they are cheap. Maybe a hybrid like a John Peluso which I heard such good things about (then people are flaming him - arrrggghh!).

I'm recording in my "project" studio. Right now I won't be able to do anything about improving the sound of the room. Too long to explain and not worth anyone's time. (Damn, this is too long already). I can tell you its 14x24x8. Hardwood floors.

Anyway, I want to go from my AC GTR (or vox) to mic, to cable, to Firepod. I want to record some tracks that a professional engineer (who's recorded bands like Poi Dog Pondering) can mix and do some arrangements. He lives near me and has offered me some help getting set up and the files set up properly so he can work on them. Firepod is Cubase and he works on ProTools.

MICS:
I'm already on board with getting a "matched" pair of SD condenser to record my guitar. Choices are: Studio Projects C4 ($320)and John Peluso CEMC-6 ($500). I'm almost afraid to ask, but I will. Anything else?

For a LD, I'm REALLY struggling because of so many conflicting posts. Problem is, not only which manufacturer, but which model. To underscore this, consider in one post, I read about how great the "new" MXL 960 sounds ($179 on sale at MF). Of course, that praise was immediately followed by, "NO, NO, NO, no cheap Chinese mikes damn it!"

So, I wonder is the 960 as good (or better) as a AT4040 because they're about the same price? I mean, does anyone have an opinion with no hidden agenda? Again, its for vox (m). Style of music is like early John Mayer. I've heard such very good things about both.

Just for fun, this is my compiled and ever changing list. Its always changing based on the reviews I collect around the web (though most of my time is spent here and then at gearslutz). In no certain order:
1) MXL: v63, v69, v77, 960
2) ADK: Vienna, Hamburg, A-51 S/TT/TL/TC
3) AT: AT4040/4033/3035/4050
4) SP: C1, TB-1, B-3, C-3
5) RE: 15/20/27
6) Senn:MD421
7) Shure: KSM-27, SM7B
8) Beyer: M500/818/88TG
9) CAD: M177/179

Well, that's it. And, I'm exhausted from reading about this stuff. Sorry for my ranting. And, seriously, thanks for your help. Without this forum, I wouldn't have even gotten this far. And to be honest, its been very rewarding becoming a part of this community because there are some very knowledgable people here.

PS A very special thanks to the moderators who put up with a lot around here.

Regards,
Mark

 

[mshilarious]

3) AT: AT4040/4033/3035/4050

You know, nobody but me seems to like the 3060, but I really really do. From what I've read of the 4060, it's no 4060. It is very picky, it only sounds good on some sources. But when it sounds good, I love that thing and its minitube sound.

So if you're gonna audition all the ATs, why not give it a try?

 

[MadAudio]

Sorry if my original post rubbed anyone the wrong way.

That happens a lot in this forum. It can get rougher than the Cave sometimes!

 

[sdelsolray]

Well, I've seem to have overloaded myself with contradictory information from this forum. I've been to a lot of different types of forums over the years, and this forum has both helped me and confused the hell out of me.

(snip)

Regards,
Mark

Mark,

There's really just a wealth on information here, quite a depth actually. Of course, there's numerous contrary points of view, opinions, etc. On the other hand, there's frequently consensus on many topics.

I've been here about 2 years. I've picked up alot of information, here and from other forums. On this forum, the gear that is familiar to posters, and which gets discussed the most, is entry level to mid level stuff. That's because that's what most members here have, or are planning to get. As you already know, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of products involved (I'm including mics as well as other studio gear items).

The two most common themes in discussions about gear on this forum are (a) is it good? and (b) how much does it cost? Variations on these themes abound. What's the best bang for the buck? Is this mic better than that mic (for the price)?

Of course, some discussions get a bit heated, there's an occasional troll, and there are some sacred cows. These almost always occur in the context of gear discussions concerning the two themes mentioned above - Is it good and how much does it cost?

The real wealth in this forum is elsewhere. As mentioned in earlier posts, there are many folks here with knowledge and experience, all of whom share that knowledge and experience freely. Those exchanges rarely get into the quality/cost dichotomy so common in other posts. For example, take 10 hours of your life and read through Harvey Gerst's mic sticky.

There are, of course, other microphone forums. Each has its own personality. For example, you don't see cost discussions on Klaus Heyne's forum, but you're likely to find detailed discussions about the difference in using omni mics vs cardioid mics. Much of what is posted in Klaus' forum is over my head, so I just lurk trying to learn.

The whole Chinese mic thing is quite interesting. Virtually every opinion or point of view (and there have been thousands here) is valid. Virtually every opinion or point of view is stated from a perspective. Nonetheless, many folks give or take offense in the debate. Kinda silly really.

Regarding your own mic purchases, you're doing the right thing. Research, narrow things down, try them out, make a decision within your budget. Make music.

 

[chessrock]

I monitor this forum every day for at least a few hours. And now, I'm further from what I came here for.

I actually think you're a lot closer than you were before.

I'm assuming you came here, originally, so that you could find out what are some good mics ... which ones tend to be better than others, or better suited to a particular task, etc.

... And what you learned is that there are a lot of different opinions on the subject. You've learned that what works for one guy in a given situation may not work for another guy in a different situation. It also looks like you've come to the conclusion that you're going to have to have some personal experience with some of this stuff in order to come to any conclusions of your own. -As opposed to having some anonymous stranger on the web spoon feed you the answers.

I'd say you've gotten a lot out of this place.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Yo Aceboy! For the record, AKG's by and large, are made in Austria, and aren't Chinese. ADK's are made in Canada, CAD in the U.S. Rode used to be made partly in China, but they are in the process of moving their production facilities entirely to Australia. While I'm not strongly political, I will generally tend to buy products that don't come from countries that have missiles pointed at me. Aside from the unavoidable cheap shit, there are numerous exceptions. My twinQ, for instance, was built in China.
All that aside, if you asked 20 experts in music production what they like, would you get the same answer? Is it Kelly Clarkson, Eminem, Jimi Hendrix, B.B. King, Aretha Franklin, The Roches, Slayer, Mozart, Garth Brooks, Jerry Garcia? Why would you ever expect artists to agree on the best paintbrush?
Mics are tools. If you define the job, you are closer to choosing the right tool. It sucks that good mics are expensive, but they are. Cheap mics are much better than they used to be, and that includes a number of Chinese models, and hybrids. My taste is sometimes mainstream, sometimes minority. I like older AKG dynamics a lot. Not as many people are familiar with them as older Shures, Beyerdynamics and EV mics, so they can often be had at a low price point. In general, yeah, I prefer German or Austrian workmanship to Chinese or Russian, Taiwanese, Philipino, etc. I'm really interested in auditioning the ADK's. I'm betting the Canadians can build great mics. But it's not about national origin, it's about sound, build quality, and service/support.
On the small diaphragm side, my personal favorite spectrum is clearer, from cheap to not- MXL603, Oktava MC012, Studio Projects C-4, AKG C451/Shure SM81, Josephson C42/Neumann KM184, Earthworks, Schoeps/DPA. Buy what you can afford that sounds good to you.
Large diaphagms are tougher, because there are so many options, and they are often used as vocal mics, and that is a very personal choice. It isn't about tubes. Some FET mics are more colored than some tube mics. I think there are "workhorse" mics that just sound good on lots of stuff, and which are sometimes used for singing. Then there are main vocal mics, which aren't always good workhorses. My favorite workhorse progression goes like this- Studio Projects B-1, AKG C2000B, B.L.U.E. Baby Bottle, AKG C414B-ULS/Shure KSM44, Soundelux ifet7.
What the hell, it's personal, but here's my progression of main vocal mics. Of course, many great mics are left out because I only get to play with so many mics:
Oktava MK319/MXL V67, Studio Projects C-3, Rode NTK, Neumann TLM103, B.L.U.E. Kiwi/Soundelux U99/Lawson L47 MkII/Brauner Voice Valvet.
Dynamics are easier. I regret that I've had no real opportunity to use Beyerdynamic mics, but sometime. The preogression, for me, goes:
Shure SM57, Sennheiser e835/e609, Sennheiser MD421/AKG D320/330 series, Shure SM7,EV RE20, Sennheiser MD441.
These are mics I recommend, from cheap to pretty pricey. I recommend them because I either own them, or have used them, and found that they all are worth what they cost. I could rattle off the names of cool ribbons, like RCA and Royer, but I've never gotten to use them, pity. In the end, if a bunch of end users disagree, you have to decide who you believe, and you have to use your ears. This board has introduced me to lots of mics and other gear I would not know about otherwise, but that can add to the confusion.
Thanks, Phyl and Noisedude, for your kind words. You're right, I'm an expert. I'm not a microphone expert, or an audio expert, I'm a storyteller. That means I write clearly, and what I do know, I can explain to people, even ones that aren't that swift. There are lots of people on this board that I, too, pay special attention to, because they are so knowledgable. I've been influenced quite a bit by the opinions of Han, Blue Bear, C7sus, Harvey, Light, John Sayers. I am a real good front man, and a fair lyricist, but God, don't mistake me for an audio engineer.-Richie