The cold, hard, facts

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Nameless said:
I agree 100%. The fact is, a lot of people (maybe not you) are striving (really hard) to get the best sound possible out of what they have. To make their recordings 'professional sounding'. Especially if they have plans of producing their own home-grown album and having it compete, at least comparingly, with other albums that were done professionally.

Or maybe even so they feel they are doing their own songs justice.

Also, a lot of people are intrigued by what goes on in a studio and how the 'pro's' do something in certain situations.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. For me, I am one of those people who strive to get the best sound possible out of what I have. No doubt about that! I use what I have to make the best recordings I can...

I have a 1/2" machine, some outboard (nothing over $600) and I'm totally satisfied... I want my recordings to sound great, it's just that I don't want it to sound like anything that's been done. I realize that there's a "certain standard" of loud and space that makes a recording compare to what's done "pro", and I understand what you're saying... So yeah, I'm all for your post. I suppose things need to be clarified. So, that's cool!

I guess I don’t like the idea of “sounding pro”, or maybe I just don’t like the term. Every time I hear someone try to throw cold facts at me, I always think back to Beck’s Mellow Gold, or Bob Dylan’s Basement Tapes, and then I say bullocks!
 
and also, I think there's something to be said for trial and error! I heard an interview with some of the member of Travis... They discribed an incident while tracking an album where the saw Nigel Godrich twisting on a comp... they asked him what he was doing, and Godrich responded by saying "I don't really know, just trying to get it to sound good". So these are things to consider. So yes, you're right about the AD converters... But on other things, well, some things have to be left open... But, I know why you posted... That's understood, and was the right thing to do!
 
gosh, I can't stop myself.... but, if all we're doing is trying to compete or sound pro, shit... stick a plastic bag over my face and tie the bottom with an elastic band...

music officially died!
 
Nameless said:
Hello. I've been working professionally in my studio for about 30 years now. A kid I have working/learning with me at my studio came to me with a lot of misinformation. He also told me about this website.

I wasn't going to sign up here until I read through all of the misinformation. Let me start by saying there is a lot of good advice here, but there's just as much bad advice and people speaking opinions of the majority instead of facts and experience (which is what bothers me). For example, 90% of the people think <name of preamp here> is a great, budget pre. And maybe only 5 or 10% of the people have actually used it.

I'm sure a lot of you will disagree and probably get angry with this post, which is fine. But for the rest of you who want to put that aside may actually learn something and improve your recordings.

There are some basic facts to getting that 'pro' sound. You'd be surprised at how many 'pro' studios aren't even capable of getting a truly professional sound out of their studios when they have all the necessary gear.

So, without further a due, here are the facts. A lot of these you will probably know, but some you may not.

1. You will not get a pro sound recording amateur/decent musicians playing on amateur/decent instruments. The expensive studios get a 'pro' sound because only the pro musicians can afford it. ;)

2. Gear is not nearly as important as you think

3. Room treatment matters more than any gear you could ever buy. This, along with the musicians/instruments is what really sets apart a pro recording from a home recording.

4. Don't bother 'upgrading' preamps from entry level if you don't have at least a $500 budget. And that will only get you to the next level of "entry-level". You need to dump at least a grand on a good, solid preamp that is capable of yielding professional results (remember #2 and #3 though).

5. Digital plugins suck. Most people can't hear the difference, but when working in a studio for 30+ years it is blatantly obvious, to me anyway. Spend the money on (good) outboard processors. Even the UAD plugins don't compare well to quality outboard gear.

6. Mix in mono. (Seriously). Don't start panning until volume levels are set and EQ and other adjustments have been made.

7. Retrack, retrack, and retrack again. You wouldn't beileve how many overdubs are done in studios. Slight string buzz on one of the acoustic guitar tracks? Redo it. Or punch in if you have to. Slightly too much bass? Retrack with better mic placement. Listen (in mono) to the mix while recording your tracks and move the mic around until it's just right.

8. Monitors don't matter as much as you might think. Yup, just find a pair that provide enough detail and are reasonably flat. By flat, I don't mean ruler flat, either. Just buy a decent pair and be done with it. Use your ears and listen on a bunch of other systems to judge things. Oh, and treat your room.

9. Do people actually spend a grand or more on A/D converters? :D Wow. Congratulations. You just fell for a huge marketing ploy. I'm not saying converters don't matter, they do. But if you keep your signal chain as short as possible and don't run your tracks through more than 1 A/D conversion, even the converters on most entry level interfaces are good enough. Spend your money elsewhere.

10. "Your signal chain is only as good as the weakest link". FALSE! I hate hearing that, especially from people who are just saying it because it is apparently the 'norm' around here. If you don't know what you're talking about, please sit down and don't spread misinformation.

If you run a $10,000 mic through a $10,000 pre, to a $100 interface that is using $10 converters, it will still sound much better than if all of that gear were entry level. Much MUCH better. Granted, if you replace that interface with a $10,000 one, the quality will be better. But I doubt most of you (and even most recording engineers in other studios) would hear a significant difference! Yup, it's true! Just keep your signal chain short and don't run tracks through more than 1 A/D conversion.

11. Careful who you take advice from around here. I've noticed quite a few people while briefly browsing that seemed to know what they're talking about, but even more people who just say things because everyone else says them. :mad:

12. "This track/mic/preamp doesn't take EQ well" - Really? ...You sure? Because I think you're full of crap. EQ is EQ. If it doesn't sound good after EQing, you either a) don't know what you're doing, b) you're EQ sounds like shit, or c) the track sounded like shit to begin with but you didn't notice until you EQd it. This brings me back to #5.

13. "I can't get a good sound out of my amp no matter what I do" - You know why? Because your amp sucks. Or maybe you suck. Not sure. Either way, don't record it. Go ahead and mess with EQ and other settings on the amp, maybe you'll get lucky. Otherwise, throw it out. Don't record something if it sounds bad (why would you even want to?).

14. "If it's analog/tube, it's gotta be good!" I've heard just as many tube amps and tube gear that sounded worse than even some not-so-good digital gear and amps! Nothing is better than a good piece of analog gear in my opinion, but just because it's analog doesn't make it good!

15. You're not ready to master yourself - FALSE. If you can mix your own songs you can master them. That's usually the problem though. Most people CAN'T mix their own songs well enough to get a good result that's even worth mastering.

16. STOP RUSHING TO THE NEXT STEP! - People are always thinking to themselves "That doesn't sound that good, I'll fix it later." If it's during the tracking stage, they say they'll fix it in the mix. If it's in the mix, they say they'll fix it in the mastering stage. This is the reason you are not getting a sound you're happy with.

I'll post more as I think of them. Most of these some of you (maybe the majority of you) already know.

Also if anyone has questions I'll be glad to answer. I'm usually very busy but this week I'm taking a little vacation and I wouldn't mind giving advice/answers to some of you.

finally someone without their head up their own arse! haha. There ARE some really good plugins out there, though... It takes a little more work to get the same result as some top analogue gear but it's possible to get just as good of a result if you know how to use them.
 
Golden said:
gosh, I can't stop myself.... but, if all we're doing is trying to compete or sound pro, shit... stick a plastic bag over my face and tie the bottom with an elastic band...

music officially died!

Music has been dead for at least 12 or 13 years.
 
Golden said:
I agree with some stuff and I don't with other stuff... First of all, "pro sound"? What the fuck is that? If I hear a good song, recorded well, or not, that's all that matters to most. Is Pet Sounds "pro sound"? can someone correct me if I'm wrong... please... pretty please...


Uh . . . If I'm standing in a kickass live room, and there is a U47 on my right, and an RCA ribbon on my left, and three Wilson brothers are standing around me, and the Wrecking Crew is being piped in the cans . . .










. . . then I'd get my ass out of there, because I have no business being in that room :o
 
TerraMortim said:
Music has been dead for at least 12 or 13 years.

As every generation has said about the next for the last 100 years at least. I now sound just like my grandpa did when he talked about metal;)

But only when I speak of certain genres.

Metal still lives though and it's had a damn long run so far. Folk as well.
Country lives on in some cases. Most of it has turned to old rock & roll with a strange twang to it.

Jazz lives on, the blues live on. None of it is has the commercial success of pop and rap because kids are more enthusiastc purchasers of music and taste tends to diversify as we get older.

F.S.
 
flatfinger said:
Damm; 138 post and no one has said it : O.K. , Here it is the cold, hard truth; You can't polish a turd.

...or we just found 138 other ways to say it.....
 
Golden said:
I agree with some stuff and I don't with other stuff... First of all, "pro sound"? What the fuck is that? If I hear a good song, recorded well, or not, that's all that matters to most. Is Pet Sounds "pro sound"? can someone correct me if I'm wrong... please... pretty please...

This is the cold hard fact: the song is good, was captured to the best of the engineers ability, and it worked!

Everything else is bullshit.

I agree about 80% (80/20 rule). Is Pet Sounds "pro sound"? In my opinion yes, especially for the 60's.

Personally I would prefer hearing great music that sounds great, over great music that's fatiguing or otherwise unenjoyable to listen to. But then I don't usually listen to music on earbuds and Ipods either ...
 
flatfinger said:
Damm; 138 post and no one has said it : O.K. , Here it is the cold, hard truth; You can't polish a turd.
Sure you can, people do it every day in their basement studios. But in the end, all you have is a polished turd. :D
 
masteringhouse said:
I agree about 80% (80/20 rule). Is Pet Sounds "pro sound"? In my opinion yes, especially for the 60's.

And anybody who says Mark Linett's 1999 remaster isn't pro sound is a tone-deaf idiot.
 
Golden I know exactly what you're saying.

Most 'pro' or 'pop' music which pop music is 'pro', but not only pop music, all sounds the same. Overcompressed, hard limited, pitch adjusting on vocals (sometimes), usually sampled drums, etc. I hope no one wants their music to sound like that.

When I say 'pro' I mean music that was recorded by professionals. This can be jazz, music from the 60s, 70s, etc. All of them just seem to have that 'full', 'polished'....professional sound that is hard to get for someone without 10+ years experience working full time in a studio.

I was trying to lay down the most important aspects, and what I feel is missing from a lot (not all) home recordings.

And for the plugins, I will take back what I said. I am pretty biased, and haven't really messed with that many. I've used the Waves L2, and their reverb, and one of the PCs in the studio has the UAD cards. I've heard it but never messed with it much myself.

It could very well be the person turning the knobs, but he is a very good engineer in my opinion, and there is just something 'sterile' about the sound. Transparent, yes, and that's good for some things, but if I buy an expensive piece of equipment I want it to add some character or quality to the sound.

Not saying the plugins can't do that, of course. ;) And if your budget limits you to plugins, make the most of them. Learn how everything works. The only way to do that is by trying each setting at its max and minimum, on lots of different material, so you can see what each parameter does to the sound.

So, in summary, what I feel lacks in a lot of home recordings is:

Performance
Quality instruments
Well treated rooms (muddy, grainy, low-fi sound can be caused by untreated rooms! Among other things though).

I don't think most people here have that much trouble mixing in general. From what I've heard it sounds like they're doing fine, it's the quality of the tracks and how they were not recorded properly for the whole song that brings everything down.

Although, I listened to a few songs in the MP3 clinic today and I am very impressed by several of them. I think the majority of the people here may just be too hard on themselves/critical of their own material!

Bottom line, master everything in the tracking stage. Instruments, room, mic placement (for the mix), retracks/overdubs, possibly compression/EQ while tracking, etc. When that is done you will see how everything falls into place. It is honestly the single most important part of getting a professional-quality product.

Sorry for the long post. :)
 
well fuk let me hear something already

btw... i don't believe my opinion would matter much in this thread so i'll just whore along and read as it proceeds.
 
Nameless said:
Golden I know exactly what you're saying.

Most 'pro' or 'pop' music which pop music is 'pro', but not only pop music, all sounds the same. Overcompressed, hard limited, pitch adjusting on vocals (sometimes), usually sampled drums, etc. I hope no one wants their music to sound like that.

When I say 'pro' I mean music that was recorded by professionals. This can be jazz, music from the 60s, 70s, etc. All of them just seem to have that 'full', 'polished'....professional sound that is hard to get for someone without 10+ years experience working full time in a studio.

I was trying to lay down the most important aspects, and what I feel is missing from a lot (not all) home recordings.

And for the plugins, I will take back what I said. I am pretty biased, and haven't really messed with that many. I've used the Waves L2, and their reverb, and one of the PCs in the studio has the UAD cards. I've heard it but never messed with it much myself.

It could very well be the person turning the knobs, but he is a very good engineer in my opinion, and there is just something 'sterile' about the sound. Transparent, yes, and that's good for some things, but if I buy an expensive piece of equipment I want it to add some character or quality to the sound.

Not saying the plugins can't do that, of course. ;) And if your budget limits you to plugins, make the most of them. Learn how everything works. The only way to do that is by trying each setting at its max and minimum, on lots of different material, so you can see what each parameter does to the sound.

So, in summary, what I feel lacks in a lot of home recordings is:

Performance
Quality instruments
Well treated rooms (muddy, grainy, low-fi sound can be caused by untreated rooms! Among other things though).

I don't think most people here have that much trouble mixing in general. From what I've heard it sounds like they're doing fine, it's the quality of the tracks and how they were not recorded properly for the whole song that brings everything down.

Although, I listened to a few songs in the MP3 clinic today and I am very impressed by several of them. I think the majority of the people here may just be too hard on themselves/critical of their own material!

Bottom line, master everything in the tracking stage. Instruments, room, mic placement (for the mix), retracks/overdubs, possibly compression/EQ while tracking, etc. When that is done you will see how everything falls into place. It is honestly the single most important part of getting a professional-quality product.

Sorry for the long post. :)

Nameless, well said. and understood. I guess I was thinking along some aesthetic lines or something... Nonetheless, I'll ponder your wisdom, and I'll listen as I do the others who speak with years of experience behind them. It's the only way to learn! Sometimes I shoot my text off! :o
 
Nameless said:
I went to the musician's home and recorded him. He is a friend of mine. I was visiting him in Florida. I wasn't anywhere near my studio and he had his own little home studio going on. No money to go to a real studio. :)



You are failing to see the point. There is a HUGE difference between a $50 fiddle and a $50 microphone on a $2,000 instrument!

Anyway, I've tried to be helpful here and I guess people would rather just try and "prove me wrong" or something. Maybe to make themselves look smarter? :confused: Or just for the sake of arguing? I don't know.

I was hoping I could give some answers to specific questions people had that they couldn't get answers to, but I guess not. :)

Anyway, it was fun. Good luck to everyone. I don't feel like trying to 'defend' myself anymore.

Ah, why give up? Some posters in this place love tearing sentences, words,opinions and experience to little bits as opposed to actually maybe learning something new. You are just trying to help like helping a poor starving crocodile by handfeeding it some chicken soup.

Use that other good hand to help the masses. Everyone has the right to post and not be degraded and harrassed.

Like this :
Cheap equipment will make a cheap recording and is a king-kong waste of time and money. Go Neumann, Avalon, UA, Neve and a good solid 2" analog pro tape deck AND digital sucks. Also, behringer anything sucks.


See? Red chicklets are raining down.
 
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A lot of it depends on your goals, as well. I really like the way a lot of low-fi recordings (Mountain Goats records especially) sound, and rawer tracks by regular artists that are often recorded in a less-than-perfect setting (Neil Young discs). I prefer that raw personality to a Pink Floyd-like tonal perfection.

Of course, I'm working my butt off treating my home studio, and I'm singing into a $2,000 Neumann...so it's all relative.
 
"Pro sound" is a sound made by a paid professional (one who earns a substantial amount of his/her income from recording) and has no other merit other than actually being able to get and keep customers. If you are bad at your job, you will cease to have a job. Every other aspect to "pro sound" is what the customer wants and deems good in his/her opinion. The comparison is almost always from commercial music of the time. In other words "make it sound like this". That is why 50,60,70 etc. music is so similar in sound techniques. The pros copy the trends to satisfy the customers.

Everything else is attributed to how that sound is achieved. Studio stuff are the tools to achieve the sound.

Artistic BS is last. Who cares what goes to tape if you are a pro. It is your job. People who make Chef Boyardee don't sample each can for a perfect recipe (they leave this step up to the rats and other vermin!).

Home recording is by-and-large a hobbiest thing where the fun is recording and hearing ourselves in grand fashion. We are rock stars in our own rite (and I do feel very sorry for the poor souls who have to listen to this agonizing so-called music). So, pro sound is commercial sound and home reccers aspire to have this sound.
 
there's something else too. in my room w/ my instruments/vocals and the same few mics, on thing i won't get is variation.

otoh, the one thing i will get is consistency. if i learn to use what i have in here, i'll at least get some decent quality tracks if i stick to some methods that if i've taken the time to find out and hone.

if i ever do finish a complete cd's worth of material, i'm not sure i'd want to do it again in here.

Q. noise. one one track i can barely hear it, but add a few together, and i can actually end up with what sounds like tape hiss although i've recorded digitally with what i thought was quality gear and methods. shocking.
 
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