The cold, hard, facts

[mcmd]

Nameless,
Thanks for the reply…I hope you plan on staying here…..

…some additional comments/questions…

Many of us rely on prerecorded loops or samples for creating the drum section, and also record the bass guitar direct. So, no opportunity to adjust and capture the room ambiance or suble effects of various mics, preamps and speakers. How would you mix under these conditions?

Thanks,
mcmd

 

[chessrock]

Now, am I correct in assuming this is a "shitty room"? When I record I get no "room sounds" at all. Well, I take that back. One time I recorded a drum set with one condenser mic hanging over it, and i got plenty of room reverb on it. But other than that, when i record electric guitars, acoustic guitars, vocals,i get no natural reverb at all, so the room qualities can't be that important, can they?

Just because you can't hear a reverb or room reflection tail doesn't mean that the room isn't having a drastic effect. In an environment with parallel walls and low ceilings, you are most likely singing or playing within several resonant bumps in your room's frequency response ("room node"). What happens is that, while you may not hear a lot of the room, it exerts it's presence in the form of screwing with the frequency response of your guitar or voice, so the mic isn't necessarily picking up an accurate picture of the sound source, but rather a skewed version of it that likely has dramatic accentuations and dips in the low and low-mid frequencies.

Yes, some of this can be countered by continuing to mic yet even closer ... which in and of itself can create a lot of unnatural low and low-mid buildup. Not the mention the fact that you're limiting yourself to just one kind of mic'ing technique, your sounds never have any opportunity to develop, and you're never actually hearing the instrument or source in it's entirety, but rather a very small and one-dimensional segment of it. An accoustic guitar never sounds entirely full at the 1-2" square area around the 12th fret, for example ... you're missing out on so much of the sound.

It's just not the way our ears are used to hearing things. When you listen to someone play live, do you walk up to the player and press your ear against the small area around the 12th fret?

.

 

[Nameless]

No offense, dude, that's the same shit that's been tossed around here for years, right down to the wink.

Go to the mp3 clinic, listen to some mixes, and offer someone some specific tips, why don't you? You've given the overall picture, get down to brass tacks and do something.

If you don't, you are pretty much going to be remembered as another self-important jerkoff who liked to hear himself talk about NOTHING.

Well, for a week, anyway, until everyone forgets you.

Wanker. Enjoy your vacation.

I know better now than to even try responding to someone like you. I try my best and take a lot of my time typing the best response I can to some pretty generalized questions and you go off. I think the right word for you is just "dick".

Nameless,
Thanks for the reply…I hope you plan on staying here…..

…some additional comments/questions…

Many of us rely on prerecorded loops or samples for creating the drum section, and also record the bass guitar direct. So, no opportunity to adjust and capture the room ambiance or suble effects of various mics, preamps and speakers. How would you mix under these conditions?

Thanks,
mcmd

Drums, lots of velocity changes and dynamics, possibly even (very) slight off-timed hits. As far as I know, most samples are compressed anyway, so I might lay off compression completely unless it is doing something for the sound that you like.

I think most songs sound best with the drums pretty upfront where they can be heard clearly. The simple fact is you will have to find a good reverb. Or play them through your monitors and record that way, but depending on your monitors, mics, and room, that can be worse. Also you lose a lot of the stereo image control doing it that way.

Another way, if you can modify the samples, is record each individual sample out of your monitors using a mic, and use them that way. Again, that can just make things worse. It's that, or experiment using a good reverb plugin. I was never taught how to use reverb, I had to experiment and learn on my own. I still have problems in that area that I'd rather not admit. But given enough time, you can find the perfect setting. Just find a good reverb unit or plugin to work with.

I personally don't like any of the reverb software that I've tried for this purpose. A lot of them sound 'good' but also 'fake'. I might only consider using them for a 'polishing' purpose.

 

[masteringhouse]

Nameless -

Given a bad room (and cheesier plugs) what techniques can you give for reamping?

I've had my students reamp drum and guitar signals to various parts of the college including large halls/rooms, studio, multiple mics in a long hall, and bathrooms (which didn't go over well at times).

 

[Nameless]

Nameless -

Given a bad room (and cheesier plugs) what techniques can you give for reamping?

I've had my students reamp drum and guitar signals to various parts of the college including large halls/rooms, studio, multiple mics in a long hall, and bathrooms (which didn't go over well at times).

Well, if you have the ability to record in another room then I would definitely try a large room. I would actually avoid bathrooms and other small enclosed spaces. Long halls can be good for recording vocals sometimes (and also bathrooms, but everyone knows that), but for reamping drum samples or guitars, etc. I would find the biggest room possible!

If you are stuck in a small shitty room, with bad plugins, there's always things you can do to make it somewhat better. A mattress or 2 behind the mic, using a directional mic, thick moving blankets on the walls, etc. Part of being a recording engineer is being able to compromise and improvise in situations like this. Be creative.

For re-amping a guitar signal specifically, use a large room or small, extremely treated room.

Find something that will provide broadband absorption, at least somewhat. Space a mattress 4" from the wall. Use something on the floor to hold it in place. Hang blankets/curtains on the wall behind it. Put the mic right infront of the mattress and the amp right in front of the mic. Depending on the mix, you may need some depth, so you might have to move the mic further back and accept some room interference. (I discussed this in a previous post).

The next thing is the ceiling. Low ceilings suck. Low untreated ceilings suck worse. In most home situations there won't be much you can do if you don't have absorption to hang up there (clouds).

In that case, find something you can put above the mic. If it's a very directional mic you may not need to, but even a directional mic can pick up bad reflections from a low ceiling.

One thing I've done, is make a small 'tent' out of thick blankets that goes over the top of the mic. We've all made tents when were kids right? Don't need a lot details on that.

By the end, you will have the weirdest looking tent/vocal booth going on that looks somewhat like an igloo and somewhat like a tent made by a 4 year old, but it works.

Being an engineer (especially in unideal situations) requires almost as much creativity as the musicians. Come up with your own ideas that work for your specific situation. This is what (I think) is fun about recording. And being in a nice, treated studio certainly makes things easier but not as fun as being creative and making do with what you have.

So while you may not like your recording environment that you're stuck with (if you're on a budget), have fun coming up with creative ideas to make it better.

 

[masteringhouse]

Let's also not forget gobos ...

What is your signal chain for re-amping? Specifically for converting line level from a board to one that works well for input to a high impedance guitar amp?

 

[junplugged]

Thanks to the named and nameless for addressing my questions.

i think an important part of it all is philosophy/attitude/energy/focus or whatever you call being open minded and trying things that won't wast a lot of time, but that can make a difference to a good and unique sound.

i remember reading George Martin saying that there are things he knew that would work and things that John Lennon wanted to try, like swinging from a rope and recording.

w/ pro and $$$ you can waste that kind of time, w/ my low budget and limited time, i need to limit my choices of what works and what i need...b/c i have a day job, that i won't quit.

so that's why some questions seem weird b/c they are overly specific b/c a guy comes home, maybe has a wife and kids and has to eat and stuff, but wants a specific direction to take and try b/c he has about an hour to spend until a few days from now.

otoh, the obvious answers to those questions are like 'rtfm' in tech forums which translate in here to, 'try it all of the ways you can and listen to them and use the one you like that sounds like you wanted it to...' etc.

i'm not exactly sure why there's so much opinion on threads instead of opinion on audio. some part of human/animal nature maybe, like a combination of: ego, turf, over-analysis of perceived attitude, or other i don't have time for....

so just stick around, and igore posters who are somehow wrapped up in the fact that you are here rather than the advice you can give that can help those who still care to appreciate it.

you could tell me i'm lazy, or stupid for trying a 4040 when a 990 would be just as good, I don't actually have a problem with that, i even entertain those as potentially true, but then move on and get to the important parts...that's why i always used to hear students around me saying first about how the like or hate a teacher in a class i attneded rather than anything they actually tried to convey...weird, but gotta live with it.

end of thread stuff back to content.

i always get impressed with my first track or 2nd or 3rd overdub b/c they are so full-bodied and crisp and clean and clear and amazing sounding, and not compressed or eq'd or effected. then i realize that this is not the sound of a major or indy, finished product on a cd or especially vinyl. (way too much dynamics, reminds me of jazz that you can't hear the quiet parts in a car esp. w/ window open)

and if i happen to make a quick mix for the car, pop it to a cd to carry around to review what i've done, it's weird on whatever i listen to it on, except my girlfriend's nice stereo w/ supwoofer in a quiet room, much like my studio w/ monitors.

so then of course if i want to dub more layers, it's time to whittle away at the bandwidth of all of the prior tracks to make eq/sonic space for the next dub.

this doesn't apply to electric guitar, however. b/c we guitarists have pretty much been matching the sound of pro releases since we started playing xx years ago.

drums, sound awesome but somewhere towards the final step is to narrow them down to sound really tiny and small like on all the tunes we hear on cd and radio.

these observations of mine should lead me to a question, i'll try to narrow it down to one:

Q. what is the #1 thing or major things that you w/ your 'pro' ears hear in non-pro producers/recorders/performers/mixers/masterers final tracks, that stands out or you just know that they didn't do?

 

[Middleman]

Just checking in to monitor the thread. I think nameless knows his stuff and I wanted to comment on the AD not being critical. Also the UAD/plugin comments.


AD under a grand is usually pretty good regardless of the brand I agree. It's the DA that separates the men from the boys and also makes less expensive products fall flat. Just wanted to add that this is where I would recommend spending some additional dollars on converters when you can afford them. It really makes a lot of difference on the final result in some genres of music. Jazz comes to mind here.

Regarding UAD1, I think these are some of the best learning products available for teaching how and when to apply affects. They really teach you about hardware and come close to the color of the externals. I do concur that if you have a decent monitoring system you can hear the damage (smearing color) they add to your tracks. On headphones they sound awesome but on monitors they sound like a cloud over the image as do many plug ins. However, sometimes the cloud works. Real external hardware is truly required at some point in the process either mix or mastering to compete with commercial releases.

Preamps, are like politics; depending on your opinion, you're going to offend someone when you talk about their influence. So I won't, except to say they are like microphones, a good bag of different ones means you can paint a broader range of sonic colors (to borrow one of Harvey's sayings).

Looking forward to others thoughts. One of the more interesting threads in sometime here. Nameless, thanks for lighting up the place.

 

[Freudian Slip]

Q. what is the #1 thing or major things that you w/ your 'pro' ears hear in non-pro producers/recorders/performers/mixers/masterers final tracks, that stands out or you just know that they didn't do?

I'm no major player here, but I can say a few that stand out to me.

#1 Things that should have been retracked. Usually vocals. Some one will sing in key for a whole song and have one line that's gratingly out of pitch. I've been as guilty as anyone.

#2 bad signal to noise ratio. Untrimmed to boot.

#3 Over Compression of the entire mix to the point of distortion & pumping.

#4 Over use of effects. Usually to cover a singer that thinks he's bad when he's really not.

Oh just one??????

I'm sure I've been guilty of all of these, so no need to point it out


Edit*** Drums............................. My nemissis

F.S.

 

[SonicAlbert]

Hey Nameless, stick around for a while, I really like your posts. Just develop a little bit more of a thick skin when people try to yank your chain here. Visit as often as you can stand it, and offer any advice as you see fit. It doesn't need to be more than that.

You may feel like your words are just a drop in a bucket, but people *are* paying attention and benefiting.

 

[boingoman]

I know better now than to even try responding to someone like you. I try my best and take a lot of my time typing the best response I can to some pretty generalized questions and you go off. I think the right word for you is just "dick".

Moment of weakness. You should stick around, another "cold, hard fact" is that forum memories are really short for the most part. And if you want to make an impact, it takes effort and time. A week's worth of even great posts, next month they are page ten.

I dig all the sort of "ghetto" solutions to less than ideal situations. Those tactics tend to get discounted here by many well-meaning people who get a little caught up in the "right" way to do things. Usually people who mention blankets and pillows around here are placed in the hierarchy somewhere between someone who kicks puppies and murderers.

What is your signal chain for re-amping? Specifically for converting line level from a board to one that works well for input to a high impedance guitar amp?

I'm interested to see what the man says, but...

Electronic line-level outputs work fine with guitar amp inputs. No fancy gear needed, unless you run into noise problems from running a long unbalanced line. At this point, I set up a small mixer in the room where I'm reamping, run balanced from my control room to the remote mixer, and unbalanced to the amp. Using a mixer gives you level control in the room, so you can adjust right on the spot, and multiple outputs for multiple amps.

 

[masteringhouse]

I'm interested to see what the man says, but...

Electronic line-level outputs work fine with guitar amp inputs. No fancy gear needed, unless you run into noise problems from running a long unbalanced line. At this point, I set up a small mixer in the room where I'm reamping, run balanced from my control room to the remote mixer, and unbalanced to the amp. Using a mixer gives you level control in the room, so you can adjust right on the spot, and multiple outputs for multiple amps.

I've found that there can be a difference in tone by not matching impedances, but the above will work. One technique I've used in the past is to plug a passive DI in reverse after the fader. There's also Cuniberti's reamp (see: http://www.reamp.com/). I was wondering if there might be other tricks other than dedicated DIs or boxes for this purpose. I'm also a fan of "ghetto" or "McGiver" solutions to problems assuming that they work well.

Re-amping is also an example (again IMHO) where digital due to a better S/N ratio actually works better than tape. Though I'm a tape fan for many other things.

 

[Jouni]

My GOD!!!!

I don't like to reply if I hanen't read the whole thread, this started well but has become Endless!!!......

Welcome Nameless.

I got reason to apply advice with salt, or not, depending on the case.. I'd think.. At least I sometimes do it my way anyhow...

But as long as your advice sounds as sane as the initial post here, I'll be happy to listen!!

 

[MCI2424]

I think it's great that a lot of you are striving for professional results at home. While my post may have sounded offensive (or even repetitive since you say it has been posted before) I thought it would help some people.

While there are a lot of 'tricks' in the recording industry to work with what you have, it really comes down to the room, musicians (especially the musicians), the song, and the instruments. The rest is secondary, which apparently most of you seem to know already.

I just get confused when seeing people asking about buying $3000+ preamps and whatnot, yet don't even have any acoustic treatment in their room, or sub-par instruments. Or trying to "upgrade" from a DMP3 to a $200 pre. I think this board needs a simple FAQ posted for everyone to refer to when they're just starting out or have some questions.

I choose to remain nameless for several reasons (no I'm not a regular on this board). Whether you choose to listen to me or not is fine. I don't really care.

I'm assuming this will turn into a "prove yourself" thread pretty quickly. And I don't want to waste time with that, I'd rather be trying to help people get better sounds, I don't feel I have anything to prove.

Also, this is the internet. For all you know I could just be bullshitting about who I am and what I know. So take it with a grain of salt like you would with anyone's advice on here. That's a good thing. And part of what I was trying to say from the beginning.

I just have one thing to say. If you are really good, good equipment will make you shine. Listen to the remastered Deep Purple Machine Head album. That recording is damn good done in a rundowm hotel corridor with mattresses as the only treatment. There are more for sure. Treatment or no, if you are a good engineer with capable equipment (not most expensive) you can make a great recording anywhere under any circumstances. The best studio on earth will not bail you out if you suck.

 

[Nameless]

Treatment or no, if you are a good engineer with capable equipment (not most expensive) you can make a great recording anywhere under any circumstances.

That's not always as true as you think. There are 'ghetto' solutions to a lot of problems but in very rare circumstances, you just have to accept your situation. There are also things you can do post-production, like EQ, reverb, compression, etc. to make up for it, but that's when gear does have an impact. Because the more you use a shitty/not-so-good plugin, the shittier and over-processed your sound is.

This is why I stress room treatment because it takes care of all those problems from the getgo, and after that point, once you have nicely recorded tracks, it does not require great gear to finish the product.

The best studio on earth will not bail you out if you suck.

That, however, is very true.

I think I missed a few questions a page back or so I'll get around to them when I have more time.

 

[masteringhouse]

Tom's rule #27

"The amount of work required to get a great sound is inversely proportion to the quality of gear given the same talent."

Doesn't mean you can't get it, you just have to work harder and longer.

 

[jfrog]

...

w/ pro and $$$ you can waste that kind of time, w/ my low budget and limited time, i need to limit my choices of what works and what i need...b/c i have a day job, that i won't quit.

so that's why some questions seem weird b/c they are overly specific b/c a guy comes home, maybe has a wife and kids and has to eat and stuff, but wants a specific direction to take and try b/c he has about an hour to spend until a few days from now.

Good perspective of what a lot of us are doing here. If I were a hipster doofus, I might even say you're "keepin' it real"


but I'm not.



Not a hipster anyway.

 

[Golden]

I agree with some stuff and I don't with other stuff... First of all, "pro sound"? What the fuck is that? If I hear a good song, recorded well, or not, that's all that matters to most. Is Pet Sounds "pro sound"? can someone correct me if I'm wrong... please... pretty please...

This is the cold hard fact: the song is good, was captured to the best of the engineers ability, and it worked!

Everything else is bullshit.

 

[Nameless]

I agree with some stuff and I don't with other stuff... First of all, "pro sound"? What the fuck is that? If I hear a good song, recorded well, or not, that's all that matters to most. Is Pet Sounds "pro sound"? can someone correct me if I'm wrong... please... pretty please...

This is the cold hard fact: the song is good, was captured to the best of the engineers ability, and it worked!

Everything else is bullshit.

I agree 100%. The fact is, a lot of people (maybe not you) are striving (really hard) to get the best sound possible out of what they have. To make their recordings 'professional sounding'. Especially if they have plans of producing their own home-grown album and having it compete, at least comparingly, with other albums that were done professionally.

Or maybe even so they feel they are doing their own songs justice.

Also, a lot of people are intrigued by what goes on in a studio and how the 'pro's' do something in certain situations.

 

[flatfinger]

Damm; 138 post and no one has said it : O.K. , Here it is the cold, hard truth; You can't polish a turd.